Paying for someone to scout

[robby denning]

ColoradoBackPack...
I've operated a similar business at times in Idaho, Nevada, Wyoming, and Montana. Before operations started anywhere, I called their governing body to check legalities. They all vary some, but do allow it with no permit.

I even went before Idaho Outfitters and Guides board and explained the concept and got their support. It may not have actually been their support, but they recognized they couldn't govern this type of practice and gave me the green light.

Scouting for hire is legal in every one of those states at the times I've checked. If it's been a few seasons since we've operated there, then I always call before we go again.

Yes there can be some gray areas like most laws but what is not gray is if you accompany someone into the field, then it's considered guiding.

This is why we won't even met people in the field to give them their maps, although we've been requested to do so many times

We don't offer drop camps for this very reason (and others) because that is considered guiding and you must have an outfitters license in the state of Idaho. Not sure about others.

I'm also a licensed outfitter in Idaho which only means I can accompany someone in the field in my operating area which is defined by the state of Idaho. You asked about cost. That activity requires a license and runs a few thousand per year by the time you include the required insurance (liability, workmans comp). Other states are different, some allow you to outfit anywhere, others not, and costs vary.

Don't confuse scouting and guiding, they are two different activities as one involves you being in person, one not.

Hope that helps.

 

[airlocksniffer]

It's legal so whatever but personally, I want my success or lack thereof to be based on what I did or didn't do.

 

[land cruiser]

I don't know about Canada but for Alaska you don't have a choice if your a non res, you are forced to have a guide. I have nothing against outfitters and nothing against guides, although as long as legally I am aloud to not use one I will.

Where my issue stems from is the the photos, gps coordinates, google map trail to follow, the strategy of how to hunt it. You might as well give your tag to Brian and watch him harvest it. And I know this happens for sheep and elk, I don't like it there either.

But if all you care about is inches on the wall to brag about in your living room then I guess this is pretty cheap. When someone asks about the hunt are people really going to say, paid a grand to get coordinates, walked out there and pasted him? For me I hang heads to remember the stories of the hunt, but maybe that's because I've never harvested a masher who knows.

People hunt out of state and out of country, there isn't really a way to scout unless you have no obligations (where is that winning lottery ticket I didn't buy?) As you have mentioned, many of species hunters are interested in hunting require a guide. We all like inches of horn and tusks and size of rugs rugs, but that's not why folks hire a guide. Being an expert on hunting tur or ibex is pretty tough if you've never been anywhere near the country they live in

I can tell you, first hand, pre-scouted hunts are far from shooting fish in a barrel. Almost anywhere. Try it

Disclaimer: Locally, I would not want anyone pre-scouting for me.

 

[Rizzy]

This would make a good live/ semi live hunt. Let's all chip in for someone and see if they can execute on it. It would be interesting to see how a hunt like this would really go.

 

[wyosteve]

So, to tie this into the thread about Wyo. banning drones, etc., it would seem like the 'paid scout' could use a drone and then sell that info to a customer.

 

[robby denning]

So, to tie this into the thread about Wyo. banning drones, etc., it would seem like the 'paid scout' could use a drone and then sell that info to a customer.

if they used the drone before the August 1st closure, they'd be legal to fly but not sure about selling the info

 

[ColoradoBackpackHunter]

Hope that helps.

Thanks for the insight Robby. I do see a place for this service but in a limited capacity. He does state there are a limited amount of bucks he will sell information for which was good to read. I thought it was interesting and not something I would personally take part in but to each their own. I would be curious to know the success rates of his info.

 

[tipsntails7]

I've watched this thread closely because it has the potential to start a silly fight. I really wanted to stay out of it because I've had a similar business for the last 19 years and can't offer an unbiased opinion on the subject. I've never used Rokslide to promote my scouting/guiding business and don't plan to start. However, I don't want this to turn into a fight.

So here's a few guidelines to follow if we want this thread to stay up:

If you don't like the idea of paying for prescouted info and you expressed that opinion- great, no problem, all opinions welcome, but please don't continue to banter on about the subject with no new info or perspective. We understand and respect that you don't like the idea and wish to do it differently yourself. I have no problem with that opinion, even though it affects me personally. I just don't want this to turn into another thread of "this class" of hunters vs "that class" of hunters.

Same as if you're for the concept, post your opinion once and move on. No need to argue with those who don't agree with you.

The laws allow for this type of service if you're not accompanying people into the field, which then becomes guiding and would require a land-use permit. Beyond that, if you want to stop it, you need to rally your state's legislator for a change in the law.

If there is any new opinions or someone has questions, then post them up. Let's just not give this an opportunity to go from a simmer to a boil. That already happened on Monster Muleys so if you want to lose an hour watching the fight, check it out over there.

Robby I don't know exactly what your business entails so forgive my ignorance.
Do you offer service in draw units only?
Public or private land?
Do you take photos of bucks and rank them?

Do you give specific info to a client about only one of those bucks and charge him based on the score you have him estimated at?

Or do you take more of an area approach, like these are some of the Bucks found in so and so area?

 

[robby denning]

tips&tails

We've always done the area approach. We usually don't promise more than that. That is why I said he'd sell out because I've talked to hundreds of guys in the last 15 years that are looking for a service just like that. I just don't want to put that much pressure on myself!

 

[robby denning]

Thanks for the insight Robby. I do see a place for this service but in a limited capacity. He does state there are a limited amount of bucks he will sell information for which was good to read. I thought it was interesting and not something I would personally take part in but to each their own. I would be curious to know the success rates of his info.

I can predict his success rate will be higher than those who show up blind. That's how it's been for us.

 

[Jason Snyder]

It's certainly not my cup of tea. I consider finding the animals part of the hunt, and something that I expect I must be able to do if I hope to have a chance to stalk and shoot an animal.

To each their own. I guess it all comes down to what you are wanting to get out of the hunt.

 

[ColoradoBackpackHunter]

My biggest concern when reading it is that to do a X amount of things on public land you have to have a permit such as outfitting, grazing fees, etc. I hope that if he is doing this without having to get a permit he is giving back in some other capacity such as joining a national or local organization like MDF at least. Not using a resource for whats its worth and when there is nothing to be made he just moves on. Im not for the big government hand is changing everyone to do everything but I'm sure to most of us this is a precious resource we are willing to pay a bit more to ensure its sustainability (not saying he alone is going to wipe out a population).

 

[tipsntails7]

tips&tails

We've always done the area approach. We usually don't promise more than that. That is why I said he'd sell out because I've talked to hundreds of guys in the last 15 years that are looking for a service just like that. I just don't want to put that much pressure on myself!

And I can understand that's

I guess my only real problem looking Brian's service over is the emphasis on the horn size and cost indicative of that size.
I don't like when elk or sheep hunters make up a hit list and and target that one animal that the client pics out of a line up, that's just me. I know governors tags are often done this way.

It's weird, I don't really want to shoot a young buck because I'd like to give him the opportunity to grow up, but I would never pass on a mature buck just because he didn't meet a certain size. Legal requirements aside obviously.

Thanks for the insight Robby

 

[dotman]

I would do it for an unguided once in a lifetime or very rare trip. I like finding game myself but if I only had a one time shot and couldn't afford a guide I would do this. I wouldn't expect trophy grade but decent info for a head start on locating areas to concentrate on. I haven't read the website or what exactly the service is but I can see a place for it.

 

[mntnguide]

He has even said that he hasnt even connected himself on any of the good bucks he supposedly finds in 4 different years of hunting up there...So as a Non-res it makes sense he is trying to make money out of his knowledge of an area that he can usually find some decent bucks in. . That being said, His inability to seal the deal would make me think anyone who pays him money for pictures etc..of a specific deer is going to still struggle to kill said deer. It is still hunting, and the damn thing is not tied to a tree! How soon would he have angry "clients" who never even see that animal once hunting season is on. . I think the idea of scouting an "area" and wanting to buy info that details more the logistics of an area including water sources, camping areas, etc...makes more sense and just seems more like a glorified map service which is definitely helpful to someone without time to set foot in the area. But the aspect of him specifically targeting one deer etc..seems more along the lines of outfitting than scouting assistance. . I personally live for the whole aspect leading up to a hunt, scouting is one of my favorite aspects of a hunt! I love spending august looking for velvet and dreaming of what could happen once season opens, and if i harvest or not, that whole aspect still makes every hunt rewarding and successful. I couldnt imagine having someone else do everything and me just going to gps coords, expecting my dream buck to step out...

 

[elkbowkevin]

After reading this whole thread, looks like someone has figured out a way to have some healthy hikes, take pics of animals, look at some maps, circle a few areas and then "SELL THAT INTELECTUAL PROPERTY ie INFORMATION" to someone from another area that wants it. Paid scouting. It's not outfitting or guiding. Grey area, yes but the laws are written and followed. Scouting for hire, and information gathering.
Last time I checked you dont need a license to sell information or intellectual property.
Outfitting by wire IE: and exchange of information, printed materials and getting paid for it. I see nothing wring with that.

But, the hunter in me says: nahh,,not for me. But to each his own, and every hunter has different circumstances, motivations, available time and time constraints, and financial status.

 

[tttoadman]

I must admit my first response was to throw up at the thought of this, but I am a very level headed guy(my wife would likely disagree). After seeing other's perspective on this, I can see both sides. Here are my primary concerns with this.

Anything that has a cost/value will eventually be exploited by the people with more money. I see this practice becoming a bidding situation where the outfitter/scout is put into an awkward position challenging his own ethics. I don't know crap compared to some people, so what if I told a guy I would give him 20K for a 200in buck in ID. You don't think that could result in a guy pushing boundaries of legality and even his own ethics? Pretty soon it becomes territorial for these scouting guys. The mighty dollar has a way of changing peoples perspective, and usually not for the better.

I am concentrating on mule deer here, because it seems like the focus of the topic. We know that the mule deer population, and the quality of the bucks is going down constantly. The old 90% success by 10% of the hunters could be manipulated by this. You now have more people buying the scouting and expertise of the 10% like Robby and others. Yes they still have to go to the forest and put the boots to the ground, but you are effectively taking the talent of the elite 10% and selling it in volume to us reject 90%. There is no way that this practice would not result in higher success rates at higher quality deer. I don't see a positive outcome for this.

On a side note. Someone mentioned a 10 point draw, and how important it would be to not waste it. If I was going to burn 10 points on a hunt, then it better not be my first time there. Spend 10 years scouting the area off and on, and you aren't going in blind. That is why they call it hunting.

 

[charvey9]

I am trying to determine what makes this issue so polarizing, having never seen this community react negatively to outfiters or guiding. They are in fact required to pursue many of the species and hunt in many of the regions/countries where animals are discussed on this site. I have read many hunt stories from Canada, Alaska, etc where neccessary props were given to outfitters / guides for contributions to the hunt.

I have limited experience with "guided" hunts, having been on 3 in Canada for bear, moose, and goat. What I can say is the information offered by this person exceeds what I have ever been given on a guided hunt at a fraction of the cost. In each of those cases the guide had a general knowledge of the hunting area and where game might be located, but succes still rested on what I was or wasn't able to do. Is it the specificity of his information that has people up in arms?

Remove the add, price tag, and "business" side of this from the scenario.

Pretend you walk into a bar near your hunting area, or an area you plan to hunt, and strike up a conversation with someone who has local knowledge. Suppose he offers to tell you where he recently spotted a nice buck, and is happy to get out the map and show you where he thinks that deer is hanging out. Are you tell me that you are plugging your ears and running out of that bar so you don't ruin your hunting experience? I'd bet my paycheck most of us would buy that man a beer, maybe pay for his dinner, and offer up a nice backstrap when we return off the mountain. Is that really any different?

 

[Justin Crossley]

Remove the add, price tag, and "business" side of this from the scenario.

Pretend you walk into a bar near your hunting area, or an area you plan to hunt, and strike up a conversation with someone who has local knowledge. Suppose he offers to tell you where he recently spotted a nice buck, and is happy to get out the map and show you where he thinks that deer is hanging out. Are you tell me that you are plugging your ears and running out of that bar so you don't ruin your hunting experience? I'd bet my paycheck most of us would buy that man a beer, maybe pay for his dinner, and offer up a nice backstrap when we return off the mountain. Is that really any different?

I think you nailed it there. Every single person who has commented on this thread has learned something from others. Most of the people who posted on this thread have actually paid for hunting knowledge one way or another I.E. magazines, and such. Plus they clearly read information on forums. I haven't used a service like this, but I have been on a hunt with a buddy where one was used. It is not a bagged hunt by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Clarktar]

CHarvey took the words right out of my mouth (or fingers?). I wasn't going to get into this thread, but he articulated what I was thinking. I don't see a problem with a service like this in any way, shape, or form. Would I use it for my home state, at this point, no. If I drew a WY tag this year would I, yes.