We need to start lobbying for point system reform

[wapitibob]

How so?

A 29 year old resident with 16 points can draw plenty of archery hunts, some mid rifle, and some alw hunts. 11 points drew Dutton archery in '23 as an example.

 

[MattB]

Residents when nonresidents want to discuss pretty much anything on rokslide be like…

View attachment 717336

Residents, or the unentitled?

 

[RunNGunSC]

It’s not really that difficult. Point systems work until there isn’t enough velocity to justify someone entering at the ground level. Preference point systems require the highest level of turnover. If someone cannot draw the tag in a reasonable time or OIL for top units it fails. Squared bonus, hybrid, and bonus can help mitigate some supply issues in exchange for removing certainty. The states need to step back and realize their is a sunk cost, provide a transition period and bite the bullet. Keep bonus or preference where tags turn every 5ish years, go random for the rest.

 

[Rifleman86]

Residents, or the unentitled?

Man, the level of projection in this post is next level.

Only here could someone post an issue that either doesn’t affect residents, or does affects residents and needs addressed in a similar fashion, and still get attacked as being “entitled.”

Not once did anyone complain about or suggest increasing nonresident tag allocations or complain about nonresident costs as a solution in this thread. In fact, most solutions brought forth would likely greatly increase the cost of the nonresident game and reduce nonresident demand.

Yet despite all of this, certain posters just couldn’t help themselves.

I’m starting to see why nobody lists their state here if they live east of the Mississippi. I’d love to redo this thread if I listed my state as Colorado (whose residents are very much negatively affected by creep) and see how different the reception would’ve been.

Starting to remember why I haven’t frequented this place in a while.

 

[MattB]

Man, the level of projection in this post is next level.

Only here could someone post an issue that either doesn’t affect residents, or does affects residents and needs addressed in a similar fashion, and still get attacked as being “entitled.”

Not once did anyone complain about or suggest increasing nonresident tag allocations or complain about nonresident costs as a solution in this thread. In fact, most solutions brought forth would likely greatly increase the cost of the nonresident game and reduce nonresident demand.

Yet despite all of this, certain posters just couldn’t help themselves.

I’m starting to see why nobody lists their state here if they live east of the Mississippi. I’d love to redo this thread if I listed my state as Colorado (whose residents are very much negatively affected by creep) and see how different the reception would’ve been.

Starting to remember why I haven’t frequented this place in a while.

You started a thread with the basic premise of “politicians in other states should reform their point systems in a way that undermines their constituents but benefits me” and asked for other poster’s thoughts on the matter.

States by and large have thoughtfully structured their NR tag allocations and point systems in a way that favors resident opportunity and leverages the limited NR participation to subsidize resident hunters. It seems deeply misguided to me to think that politicians/appointed officials should be using NR feedback to influence this policy.

Ironically, the best way NR’s could do so would be to stop participating. If NR funds decrease, it may eventually cause states to make NR-friendly changes to the system to increase participation.

 

[Archer86]

Residents when nonresidents want to discuss pretty much anything on rokslide be like…

View attachment 717336

I mean it's kind of true montana over 50k big game tags to nr wyoming over 50k big game tags to nr. Colorado way to many nr tags new mexico has the stupid eplus system to benefit who oh NR

it's not the western states problem that so many guys want to hunt 4 different elk tags and 4 different deer tags every year that is really what is driving point creep you are all screwing each other over apply for everything you can maybe the reform needs to be limit nr to apply for tags in one state other then there home state and see what that does to draw odds.

 

[Rifleman86]

You started a thread with the basic premise of “politicians in other states should reform their point systems in a way that undermines their constituents but benefits me” and asked for other poster’s thoughts on the matter.

States by and large have thoughtfully structured their NR tag allocations and point systems in a way that favors resident opportunity and leverages the limited NR participation to subsidize resident hunters. It seems deeply misguided to me to think that politicians/appointed officials should be using NR feedback to influence this policy.

Ironically, the best way NR’s could do so would be to stop participating. If NR funds decrease, it may eventually cause states to make NR-friendly changes to the system to increase participation.

The entire premise of the OP was never a resident vs nonresident thing. Nothing about reforming point systems necessarily affects residents any differently than non residents. Many residents deal with the negative effects of point creep just like nonresidents, and if residents don’t use PP’s in a particular state or species, it wouldn’t affect residents at all. You are projecting things into my OP that simply aren’t there.

You are so obsessed with your zip code you are literally making stuff up to troll the thread.

ETA show me where I was in any way trying to “undermine” residents, or somehow adjust tag allocations to reduce resident tag allocation to favor non residents. Use specific examples.

 

[KurtR]

I like the only get to apply in one state a year idea.

 

[CorbLand]

A 29 year old resident with 16 points can draw plenty of archery hunts, some mid rifle, and some alw hunts. 11 points drew Dutton archery in '23 as an example.

I will stand corrected that there are a few, but not many hunts that someone could draw but the reality is that the vast majority of people are going to die with points, some a lot of points. Which going back to my original comment, you might as well go pure random and double the number of tags you could draw.

 

[MattB]

The entire premise of the OP was never a resident vs nonresident thing. Nothing about reforming point systems necessarily affects residents any differently than non residents. Many residents deal with the negative effects of point creep just like nonresidents, and if residents don’t use PP’s in a particular state or species, it wouldn’t affect residents at all. You are projecting things into my OP that simply aren’t there.

You are so obsessed with your zip code you are literally making stuff up to troll the thread.

ETA show me where I was in any way trying to “undermine” residents, or somehow adjust tag allocations to reduce resident tag allocation to favor non residents. Use specific examples.

if residents were so concerned about point creep, don’t you think they would be petitioning to make those changes? But they aren’t. Luckily they have NR’s - operating purely from a position of altruism - who are willing to take up the cause on their behalf.

Trying to get residents to push for a solution to a problem they don’t have for your benefit and diminishing their flexibility in the process seems like undermining their position. So too would be flushing people out of the points pool if they did not apply for a hunt every year as those revenues would need to be made up somewhere - and residents would likely have to bear at least a portion of that burden.

Edit: I should add the obvious that NR’s are disproportionately impacted by point creep. While R’s are also impacted, it tends not be as significant an issue.

 

[CorbLand]

if residents were so concerned about point creep, don’t you think they would be petitioning to make those changes? But they aren’t. Luckily they have NR’s - operating purely from a position of altruism - who are willing to take up the cause on their behalf.

Trying to get residents to push for a solution to a problem they don’t have for your benefit and diminishing their flexibility in the process seems like undermining their position. So too would be flushing people out of the points pool if they did not apply for a hunt every year as those revenues would need to be made up somewhere - and residents would likely have to bear at least a portion of that burden.

There’s quite a few residents that are starting to see the sham that points are but the problem is that nothing will change. Too many people with points that would be pissed if they went away. Kind of a waste of time to spend trying.

Best thing that one can do is to point out the issues with them and save the few states that don’t have them from going down the same path.

 

[Rifleman86]

if residents were so concerned about point creep, don’t you think they would be petitioning to make those changes? But they aren’t. Luckily they have NR’s - operating purely from a position of altruism - who are willing to take up the cause on their behalf.

Trying to get residents to push for a solution to a problem they don’t have for your benefit and diminishing their flexibility in the process seems like undermining their position. So too would be flushing people out of the points pool if they did not apply for a hunt every year as those revenues would need to be made up somewhere - and residents would likely have to bear at least a portion of that burden.

Fail.

CO residents aren’t upset about point creep? You might want to talk to a few of them.

 

[Maverick1]

Man, the level of projection in this post is next level.......
Starting to remember why I haven’t frequented this place in a while.

Wow. Are you really surprised by any of this? Really? Come on, man.

You aren't a FNG. You have over 1200 posts on this forum and have been a member since 2018. Just over a year ago you were looking to the community for input on some life decisions!

Don't act surprised by how this thread turned out - - - or try to play the victim card here.

You started this thread, and should have known exactly what it could lead to.

How? You have participated in plenty of threads in the past around point systems, the western states, and point creep. A few examples....
Wyoming G&F, how de we get a voice as NR's?
Wyoming 90/10 for elk
Wyoming non resident proposal
Wyoming Nonresident Proposed Changes
Wyoming NR Special increase headed for the Gov's signature

There have also been plenty of other multi-page threads on these same topics in the time since you joined as well.....
CPW Commission is proposing ALL DRAW for elk
Legalized robbery that needs to stop.
Wyoming 90/10 task force!
How will 75% Tag Allocation Affect Preference Points in CO?
Wyoming proposal to slash Non-resident hunters
Idaho NR Draw Bill… thoughts?
Wyoming Passes 90/10: The Worst Article You’ll Read This Year
Why the NR HATE?? Let's fix it!
Colorado Preference Point Focus Group

(Many of these threads have turned into multi-page, swirling bowls of poo that get locked by the moderators after things turn......less than productive.....)


At one point, you started a thread, "I'm glad western hunting is complicated" and stated in that thread "I’m glad it’s complicated" and "Bottom line, keep it complicated. It’s one of the best and fairest barriers to entry."

Now, you started this thread, with the opening line "I think it’s high time we start pushing states to reform their points systems"

And now you act surprised this thread has not really progressed how you'd imagine it would - ideas from the conversation shared with people who are very active and influential in wildlife management and conservation space, and shared with key decision-makers at the state and federal level? Hmmmm.

Edit #1: You started a 21 page thread I propose the “Fair opportunity in America’s Outdoors Act” in March of 2022 which got a lot of the same types of responses then - why would you expect this to be different?

Edit #2: And, a year later, in March of 2023, you started another thread Is the western hunting bubble bursting? (Or at least shrinking?) which went 13 pages - and had a lot of the same back and forth there, too.

SMH.

 

[jmez]

If you were from Colorado and bitching about WY or MT you would get the same response.

Sent from my moto g power 5G - 2023 using Tapatalk

 

[LostArra]

I think it’s high time we start pushing states to reform their points systems.

As MattB has mentioned non-residents have zero "push" on a state's decision makers.
Watch the video of the Wyoming Task Force meetings. I think it was Sen Hicks who stated he was annoyed by all the non resident letters and emails he received so he just trashed 'em. Obviously Sen Hicks likes getting re-elected.

 

[KHNC]

As long as they buy points and don't apply, you'll never see them or suffer any affects. I also like to draw tags, that's why I buy points.

You may change your tune once you draw Wyoming , AZ, NV or UT for the last time, and then realize you wont live long enough to ever elk hunt there again.

 

[wytx]

You may change your tune once you draw Wyoming , AZ, NV or UT for the last time, and then realize you wont live long enough to ever elk hunt there again.

Never again?
This is part of the issue. Yes you could hunt elk every year if you staggered your apps for different states and not just tying to get licenses in every state every year. Cow licenses are great for meat hunters , plenty to go around right now.

 

[Jethro]

Wow @Maverick1, that is some top notch investigative work. Little creepy, but exactly on point.

 

[southLA]

Point systems were designed to “get your place in line” to draw a tag. The problem is you can buy points and NEVER apply, and this is how many people use the system. They buy their points for that “someday” hunt and never use them. As a result, the points required to actually hunt increase almost 1 for 1 every year in states like CO and WY. I’m not criticizing these folks, I do it to, because that’s the game.

If they don't use their points, how does it affect you?

 

[Rifleman86]

Wow. Are you really surprised by any of this? Really? Come on, man.

You aren't a FNG. You have over 1200 posts on this forum and have been a member since 2018. Just over a year ago you were looking to the community for input on some life decisions!

Don't act surprised by how this thread turned out - - - or try to play the victim card here.

You started this thread, and should have known exactly what it could lead to.

How? You have participated in plenty of threads in the past around point systems, the western states, and point creep. A few examples....
Wyoming G&F, how de we get a voice as NR's?
Wyoming 90/10 for elk
Wyoming non resident proposal
Wyoming Nonresident Proposed Changes
Wyoming NR Special increase headed for the Gov's signature

There have also been plenty of other multi-page threads on these same topics in the time since you joined as well.....
CPW Commission is proposing ALL DRAW for elk
Legalized robbery that needs to stop.
Wyoming 90/10 task force!
How will 75% Tag Allocation Affect Preference Points in CO?
Wyoming proposal to slash Non-resident hunters
Idaho NR Draw Bill… thoughts?
Wyoming Passes 90/10: The Worst Article You’ll Read This Year
Why the NR HATE?? Let's fix it!
Colorado Preference Point Focus Group

(Many of these threads have turned into multi-page, swirling bowls of poo that get locked by the moderators after things turn......less than productive.....)


At one point, you started a thread, "I'm glad western hunting is complicated" and stated in that thread "I’m glad it’s complicated" and "Bottom line, keep it complicated. It’s one of the best and fairest barriers to entry."

Now, you started this thread, with the opening line "I think it’s high time we start pushing states to reform their points systems"

And now you act surprised this thread has not really progressed how you'd imagine it would - ideas from the conversation shared with people who are very active and influential in wildlife management and conservation space, and shared with key decision-makers at the state and federal level? Hmmmm.

This is just creepy. You need a job, or… something.

ETA not surprised it turned into a shit show. Disappointed I guess. I thought it might be one of those few things that if fixed somehow might be beneficial to both NR and residents (as outfitters like repeat clients, and it’s good for their business.) Also like I’ve said repeatedly, residents are also affected by point creep depending on the species.

With all that being said, if I pissed off you off enough that you are willing to stalk down every thread I’ve ever participated in on this forum, I think it’s time I quit participating in any of these conversations. I’ve already probably shared a bit too much personal information on this site anyway.

The mood in any of these threads has turned from healthy conversations to pretty much toxic over the past 6 years.