We need to start lobbying for point system reform

[Elkangle]

Can we all agree that country wide we need to only let 5% or less wyoming residents hunt other states each year ? Is this too generous they could do a cubed random draw for who gets to apply for other states... like a reverse draw to get into a draw.. it's perfect !

BTW it's only fair if i get I shoot a giant every year, with no work, what ever system that makes that happen I'm for

Proceed

 

[WTFJohn]

This is just creepy. You need a job, or… something.

Your 21 page thread titled "I propose the "Fair opportunity in America's Outdoors Act" Mar 18, 2022.

You got a lot of the same type of responses then, why would you expect this to be different?

I think the vast majority of us posting here believe in a few fundamental things, one being access to our vast federal lands for recreational opportunities as well as state management of wildlife via the North American model. However we’re seeing a worrying trend in American hunting, specifically non resident big game hunting opportunities are becoming more and more monetized, greatly benefiting the coffers of state fish and game agencies, subsidizing resident license sales, and giving increased preference to politically connected outfitters. This comes at great detriment to the average American hunter. It might benefit him to a minor degree if he is lucky enough to live in a state that has ample big game opportunities, but it comes at his great cost if he chooses to explore opportunities in the 49 other states.

Along with state management of course comes states rights. Bottom line the federal government has no right to come in and tell a state what to do with its management of wildlife outside the bounds of the ESA. In my mind nor should they. Likewise states should and obviously do give great preference to their residents through both costs of tags and opportunities to hunt. However in many states hunting as a non resident is becoming an onerous task out of reach of many. Most of these opportunities however occur on federal lands that the rest of the country in large part pays for and owns.

That said the federal government provides millions to the states each year through matching funds through the Pittman Robertson Act, the excise tax we pay for through hunting and fishing equipment. These funds are only allocated if states meet certain requirements such as keeping fish and game sales dollars out of the general fund and put back into wildlife management. (If I’m getting any of this wrong, apologies, I’m by no means an expert.)

I propose this be amended to at least give a left lateral limit to all states with their non resident opportunity.

“A state shall not receive Pittman Robertson Funds if they,

1. Charge a non resident more than 10 times the resident cost of a hunting, fishing, or trapping license or tag valid on federal land.

2. Allocate less than 10% of all limited entry tags to non resident hunters or fishermen valid on federal land. If 6-10 tags are allocated for said unit, at least one of those tags shall go to a non resident. If 1-5 tags are allocated, at least one tag must be issued to a nonresident every other season. If tags valid on federal land are sold over the counter to residents, at least 10% of the sale amount for the previous year must be provided to nonresidents.

3. Provides any differing rules or regulations to nonresident hunters, fishermen, or trappers compared to that required of residents while utilizing federal land. (Eliminates nonresident guide requirements on federal land or wilderness areas.)

4. Proves any preference in drawing to outfitted non resident hunters for tags valid on federal land, or allows outfitted hunters to purchase additional points compared non outfitted hunters.

5. If preference or bonus points are utilized in tag drawing process, these points will not cost more than 10 times that of the resident cost, or 10% of the nonresident tag cost, whichever is less.”

Bottom line the idea above is a dumb fireman’s idea of how to tackle the problem after a finger or two of bourbon. I’m sure it’s far from perfect, and I anxiously await it getting torn to bits by people who are way smarter than me. But it’s at least an attempt at tackling an issue that is barreling down the neck of all of us who enjoy hunting all across this great country. Maybe it will start a conversation that refines itself into something good for all of us.

I’m sure some residents of western states can’t wait to angrily type into their keyboards or smartphones after reading this. That’s fine, all I ask is you stop for a moment and consider the big picture. We’re all non residents in 49 other states after all.

 

[3forks]

Can we all agree that country wide we need to only let 5% or less wyoming residents hunt other states each year ? Is this too generous they could do a cubed random draw for who gets to apply for other states... like a reverse draw to get into a draw.. it's perfect !

BTW it's only fair if i get I shoot a giant every year, with no work, what ever system that makes that happen I'm for

Proceed

I doubt any Wyoming residents (if any at all) would feel the need to hunt any state besides Wyoming.

Who would trade any of the hunting they have in Wyoming for dealing with crowds on the minimal public grows that exists in midwestern and eastern states in order to sit in a tree stand to hunt whitetails?

 

[Elkangle]

I doubt any Wyoming residents (if any at all) would feel the need to hunt any state besides Wyoming.

Who would trade any of the hunting they have in Wyoming for dealing with crowds on the minimal public grows that exists in midwestern and eastern states in order to sit in a tree stand to hunt whitetails?

Perfect, more AZ strip bucks for me

 

[KHNC]

Never again?
This is part of the issue. Yes you could hunt elk every year if you staggered your apps for different states and not just tying to get licenses in every state every year. Cow licenses are great for meat hunters , plenty to go around right now.

We are discussing point creep. In his case, i doubt he is buying points to hunt cows or meat. I was referring to not bull elk hunting ever again. If you dont have points for LE in the states i mentioned, and are over 40 , you wont likely get to hunt a bull elk in your future.

 

[5MilesBack]

I’d love to redo this thread if I listed my state as Colorado (whose residents are very much negatively affected by creep) and see how different the reception would’ve been.

That wouldn't have changed anything. We'd still have a very high demand for the same number of or fewer tags as we've always had. The point system still works as designed, it just takes us more years for tags we used to get in fewer years. That's how supply and demand works.

I have a favorite elk unit in CO. It wasn't that long ago when it was easier to draw that archery tag as a NR than as a resident. But the number of NR hunters (and the demand for tags) has absolutely exploded in the last decade......probably thanks to social media. That's the problem, not the point systems.

Last year there were just over 19k elk tags left over after the initial draw in CO. They've also had OTC elk tags for archery and rifle since they began issuing tags, and as of this year......they still do. So EVERYONE in the country 12 and over has had the ability to come to CO and hunt elk every single year if they so choose. Everyone has had the opportunity to collect PP's and choose when to use those points. And everyone has had the opportunity to choose a different state as well. Anyone with expectations or demands above and beyond that has adopted the entitlement mentality. You're not entitled to squat, except your opinion. You've expressed it, and we've expressed our opinion of it. But in the end, none of us are entitled to a tag.....except those that have enough points for that tag.

 

[WTFJohn]

We are discussing point creep. In his case, i doubt he is buying points to hunt cows or meat. I was referring to not bull elk hunting ever again. If you dont have points for LE in the states i mentioned, and are over 40 , you wont likely get to hunt a bull elk in your future.

And that is due to the number differential between bull elk and the people that want to hunt bull elk. As an example, the OP is an adult-onset western big game NR hunter that admits he wants to hunt everywhere in the US:

Agreed, we are all lucky to live in a country with awesome big game opportunities. Not all of us can pick up and leave family, businesses, careers, etc because we want to hunt a different state.

It might be a terrible idea, but you didn’t tell me why. I didn’t claim to have all the answers, I’m just a guy that wants to hunt all over this great country.

Now, many NR are applying in multiple states and simultaneously complaining about the line in each state getting longer.

How would you feel as a CO/WY/MT/ID/UT resident watching your favorite spots get filled up with NR vehicles and blown out by amateur buglers? Maybe you have seen someone post skyline pictures of your area, and brag about taking a 987 yd shot on a bull that 'looked good' off a tip from a local but he never recovered the animal and still wrote a hunt report that called it a positive experience?

Or maybe it's like reading the OP's hunt report, where he shot a cow at 500+ and didn't even know if he went to the right place, but only searched a little bit because it was getting dark and they were far from camp, but he called it good and kept hunting.

 

[Maverick1]

Your 21 page thread titled "I propose the "Fair opportunity in America's Outdoors Act" Mar 18, 2022.

You got a lot of the same type of responses then, why would you expect this to be different?

About time for a meme.

 

[CorbLand]

Never again?
This is part of the issue. Yes you could hunt elk every year if you staggered your apps for different states and not just tying to get licenses in every state every year. Cow licenses are great for meat hunters , plenty to go around right now.

Another part of the issue is the mentality that if someone wants to hunt, they must be applying in every state. It wasnt long ago that you could hunt your home state and never leave. Now people have a mentality that if you arent applying in five states your not worthy of a tag.

 

[LostArra]

Never again?
This is part of the issue. Yes you could hunt elk every year if you staggered your apps for different states and not just tying to get licenses in every state every year. Cow licenses are great for meat hunters , plenty to go around right now.

I think most folks don't really want to hunt elk every year but buying a preference point and complaining about point creep feels like you are at least doing something. This September will be 15 years straight for me hunting in Wyoming. (zero points)


Buying preference points is like planting a tree. The very best time to do it was 20 years ago.
Planting a tree now is still good. I'm not so sure about buying preference points. For me? No

 

[WCB]

Have to apply every year or you lose points. Make every applicant pick a 2nd choice, all choices have to be different and if you draw you lose points. If you turn tag back in...you lose points. eliminate just buying points.

Do I all those suggestions...no. BUT it is the only way you will help prevent point creep. Also, you will have to deal with current point holders some that have THOUSANDS of dollars into points for one state for one tag.

 

[WCB]

And that is due to the number differential between bull elk and the people that want to hunt bull elk. As an example, the OP is an adult-onset western big game NR hunter that admits he wants to hunt everywhere in the US:



Now, many NR are applying in multiple states and simultaneously complaining about the line in each state getting longer.

How would you feel as a CO/WY/MT/ID/UT resident watching your favorite spots get filled up with NR vehicles and blown out by amateur buglers? Maybe you have seen someone post skyline pictures of your area, and brag about taking a 987 yd shot on a bull that 'looked good' off a tip from a local but he never recovered the animal and still wrote a hunt report that called it a positive experience?

Or maybe it's like reading the OP's hunt report, where he shot a cow at 500+ and didn't even know if he went to the right place, but only searched a little bit because it was getting dark and they were far from camp, but he called it good and kept hunting.

Well considering in most states NR tags are limited to X amount of tags...pressure from spot to spot may change from year to year but you aren't getting more NRs. So more guys applying does not mean more guys are hunting. If anything loss of access to private has driven pressure up as I know a bunch of guys that used to go out and hunt the same ranch year after year...now the ranch is sold or an outfitter moved in and the group now resorts to public land.

Also, don't think that Residents aren't hunting the exact same way. I've experienced WAY more slob lead slinging truck hunting locals in MT, WY, ND, SD, etc than NRs.

 

[KHNC]

And that is due to the number differential between bull elk and the people that want to hunt bull elk. As an example, the OP is an adult-onset western big game NR hunter that admits he wants to hunt everywhere in the US:



Now, many NR are applying in multiple states and simultaneously complaining about the line in each state getting longer.

How would you feel as a CO/WY/MT/ID/UT resident watching your favorite spots get filled up with NR vehicles and blown out by amateur buglers? Maybe you have seen someone post skyline pictures of your area, and brag about taking a 987 yd shot on a bull that 'looked good' off a tip from a local but he never recovered the animal and still wrote a hunt report that called it a positive experience?

Or maybe it's like reading the OP's hunt report, where he shot a cow at 500+ and didn't even know if he went to the right place, but only searched a little bit because it was getting dark and they were far from camp, but he called it good and kept hunting.

I wasn't even referring to the OP in my reply.

 

[wapitibob]

We are discussing point creep. In his case, i doubt he is buying points to hunt cows or meat. I was referring to not bull elk hunting ever again. If you dont have points for LE in the states i mentioned, and are over 40 , you wont likely get to hunt a bull elk in your future.

You could hunt WY Bulls on a 7-2 license in 2024 with zero points.
You could hunt AZ Bulls on a late tag and 5 points in several units.
Utah is pretty much a raffle for a random tag.

 

[WTFJohn]

Well considering in most states NR tags are limited to X amount of tags...pressure from spot to spot may change from year to year but you aren't getting more NRs. So more guys applying does not mean more guys are hunting. If anything loss of access to private has driven pressure up as I know a bunch of guys that used to go out and hunt the same ranch year after year...now the ranch is sold or an outfitter moved in and the group now resorts to public land.

Also, don't think that Residents aren't hunting the exact same way. I've experienced WAY more slob lead slinging truck hunting locals in MT, WY, ND, SD, etc than NRs.

There's problems anywhere you look, R or NR. I can't limit the population increase in CO, but I can lobby to slow the NR influx especially when it comes to OTC tags. All it takes is one hard winter like 22-23 to kill off massive numbers of animals and change how entire areas of the state are managed, R are not immune from losing access to areas on formerly easy tags.

I wasn't even referring to the OP in my reply.

I know, I was just referencing him because it was easy (the quoted post is one of his first replies in the other thread I posted). The point still stands that there are only so many bull elk in the west, and the R population of western states has been on a continual climb for many years meaning there is less of the state-owned/public-trust resource for NR to have.

How would/could I, as a R, lobby against a fellow R to limit our own opportunities? They pay the same taxes I do, they go to the same CPW stakeholder meetings I do, they are no different. However, NR by and large do not do the above, and as NR are not stakeholders in any way regarding the state-owned resource.

 

[MallardSX2]

You could hunt WY Bulls on a 7-2 license in 2024 with zero points.

Ya...on a $2000 special-ed tag. lol

 

[KHNC]

You could hunt WY Bulls on a 7-2 license in 2024 with zero points.
You could hunt AZ Bulls on a late tag and 5 points in several units.
Utah is pretty much a raffle for a random tag.

I dont see where a type 7 reduced price tag is for bulls. But , I didnt search too hard either. Unless you mean Area 7 Type 2 restricted area any elk tag.

 

[ndbuck09]

The reason why western hunting points are the way they are and not changing any time soon is represented by the disagreement on the issue exhibited in this thread. People try to portray that they're being objective but in reality, they're still keeping their own interests in mind with their "solutions".

In my opinion, the only way it's truly reformed is true random with no gimmicks, loopholes, weight, etc. Raise the cost to apply to cover for the money lost from all the point sales. A 22 yr old is on the same playing field as that 55 yr old entitled brat.

 

[WTFJohn]

This is just creepy. You need a job, or… something.

ETA not surprised it turned into a shit show. Disappointed I guess. I thought it might be one of those few things that if fixed somehow might be beneficial to both NR and residents (as outfitters like repeat clients, and it’s good for their business.) Also like I’ve said repeatedly, residents are also affected by point creep depending on the species.

With all that being said, if I pissed off you off enough that you are willing to stalk down every thread I’ve ever participated in on this forum, I think it’s time I quit participating in any of these conversations. I’ve already probably shared a bit too much personal information on this site anyway.

The mood in any of these threads has turned from healthy conversations to pretty much toxic over the past 6 years.

I just came back and saw this.

Woe is you, may your tears flavor your tag soup in years to come. If being held accountable for your words is a difficult thing for you, maybe talk less and listen more.

You're easy to remember because you pull this shit year after year. And you post on another forum I am a member of under the same name, and it's...interesting to see the difference in how the stories are portrayed on the different websites.

 

[wapitibob]

I dont see where a type 7 reduced price tag is for bulls. But , I didnt search too hard either. Unless you mean Area 7 Type 2 restricted area any elk tag.

area 7, 5 point one side, converse county
100-2 took >2, and is 4 point one side
117-3 was 0 points but spike or antlerless