New house bill for Idaho

[Broomd]

10 years ago I would've been really upset that the State of Idaho would even consider a law like this.....until I purchased a large peice of land. My land is adjacent to BLM on 2 sides and the trespassing is awful. I painted the tops of every other fence post orange and posted "No Tresspassing" signs at every gate. It took a week for every sign to be shot up with shotguns and someone even cut the tops off most of my painted posts so that there was no orange paint visible. Seemed like every time I went out there the gates were down and people were shooting or riding motorcycles.
I was nice at first and just asked them to leave. Most people were apologetic and quickly left, but one incident led to a physical altercation and I had to press felony charges and spent months in attorneys offices and court. Now I allow no one besides family or close friends on my property. I check it every day, and if there are trespassers present they will get law enforcement called and they will receive a citation. No exceptions. Instead of approaching trespassers with kindness, I'm now very heavy-handed and unbending, unless there are children present. I believe that laws like this could be avoided if people were more aware and actually cared about others. Do some research before you leave the house, make sure that your intended area is public or that you have permission and are aware of the boundaries. I will continue to post my property even if the law says I don't have to, but make no mistake...I'm looking forward to some of my chronic local trespassers being rewarded with a felony conviction and loss of a large portion of their constitutional rights as a prize for their cro-magnon disrespect for myself and my neighbors.

Very unfortunate, and this is the side that many fellas never see. Time, money, aggravation....wounded game that bounds toward landowner dwellings that trespassers fear to harvest. I've found those hairy deer and elk bone piles on our place. It's a waste and a mess. I'd rather a road hunter that shot into our fencing just knock on the door and fess up to harvest the damn animal than to let it rot!

 

[mfllood3800]

You’re miles deep in an unfamiliar checkerboard area and your GPS dies. If there are no postings there’s no way for you to legally navigate. There needs to be property postings. Especially if the penalties are going to be severe.

Good point.
Or you're close to hypothermic, trying to get out alive and you do what ever is needed to accomplish that.

You get disorientated, or even purposely cut across private to shave of a mile or so with hopes of staying alive.

I guess there could be tons of scenarios for review by a judge here.

the problem is there are those few who have ruined everything for the majority. And as hunting gains popularity, those few multiply.
As a land owner I cant blame some of those in this thread for their view points in favor of this. Until you are on that side of the abuse, you only look at it thru your eyes of "morality" But not every public land user is "moral.

I also see it from the hunter on public who is moral, and accidently crosses into private, or even purposely does for reasons he felt was justified.

The problem with laws is they throw every body into one basket rather than sort thru and pick out the nuts from the chocolates.

 

[cuerro viejo]

No body is arguing this ?
Not sure how you concluded what you did.

The issue is in unmarked, changing properties, or selling of land once ok to hunt, but now not, and trying to stay on top of it, to avoid severe fines.
All while property owners have no responsibility to mark their property Any more.

The bill wreaks of underlying purposes with hidden agendas.



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That’s my point, it was already private property, the burden of seeing if it’s still ok to hunt isn’t and shouldn’t be on the new landowner Etc, it’s on the guy that doesn’t own it.

If it’s not your property and you don’t have expressed written permission to hunt or cross it for that year, then don’t hunt/cross it.

As far as marking property, that’s a simple one, if you aren’t sure don’t go there.

 

[cuerro viejo]

You’re miles deep in an unfamiliar checkerboard area and your GPS dies. If there are no postings there’s no way for you to legally navigate. There needs to be property postings. Especially if the penalties are going to be severe.

If your miles deep and need to legally navigate unfamiliar checkerboarded area probably should of brought a back up as in a map.

 

[5MilesBack]

It's too much to ask for land owners to mark their boundaries because the Wilks Brothers don't want to have to pay someone to mark the thousands of acres they just bought and locked up.

So are you saying that they bought up a bunch of land that wasn't already private, and already under the old law of signage requirements? What parcels of land are these?

This is all just a growing trend in our society these days......nobody wants to be responsible for themselves anymore, put that responsibility on someone else. "It's not my responsibility to know where I am."

 

[Mtnboy]

They bought land that was already private, it was owned by a Timber Company that allowed access. Now, Wilkes don't want any access but they don't want to have to mark anything either.

There have already been multiple issues of their security people harassing folks who were on access roads they had a right to be on.

The current law of marking has been in place for over 30 years. Generations of hunters and outdoor users have become accustomed to it. Making a drastic change now is just going to cause confusion for years to come. It's fixing something that isn't broken.

Those of you saying just use a GPS, those chips are accurate to +/- 125 feet from what I understand.

 

[Randle]

A map isn't going to be accurate enough in the north idaho jungle to keep you out of trouble. How do you determine exactly where you are?. When you can't see landmarks to use? Terrain association can only get you so close.

 

[mfllood3800]

A map isn't going to be accurate enough in the north idaho jungle to keep you out of trouble. How do you determine exactly where you are?. When you can't see landmarks to use? Terrain association can only get you so close.

Agreed...
I don't think any one is arguing that we don't have to be responsible and know where we are

The argument is the severity of the new bill, with no responsibility of land owners, while outdoor enthusiasts are forced to rely on gps and maps that may or not be accurate in some situations, to avoid the severe proposed punishments.

Yes hunters have to be responsible
But is it too much to ask land others to share the responsibility of ensuring the privacy of their land?

It just seems like a bill that is directed towards a specific end result

As a land owner, I feel I am obligated to mark my priorities to secure them
Both for the abusers, and the ones who end up on it with out realizing it.

If the proposed bill wasn't so harsh in penalty, I might view this differently.

There is an end result desired and the bill is just a means to achieve it

Most new bills today are written to accomplish something rather than prevent something.

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[5MilesBack]

There's an area of NF I hunt that some maps show a "private" entire section of land (640 acres) smack dab in the middle of it. Other maps don't show it as private at all. It's about a 50/50 mix on the maps. My GPS shows it as private, and OnX gets their info from county records as far as I know. Guys I know that have hunted in that area for decades are surprised when I even mention it as private, as they've never seen any postings. That's because there aren't any postings. But the question remains, and until I research it through the county records I always steer clear of it.

There are also many private mining claims in this area that criss-cross all over the place, many of them only 20 acres which are long and narrow. None of them are marked at all with fences or signs, but they are still private. The ONLY way to ensure that I stay off them is to carry my GPS zoomed in and go around them. If I didn't have the GPS, I would avoid the area completely. I'm just dumbfounded that this is even an issue. Perhaps it's just the way many were raised, so someone dropped the ball at some point.

 

[mfllood3800]

There's an area of NF I hunt that some maps show a "private" entire section of land (640 acres) smack dab in the middle of it. Other maps don't show it as private at all. It's about a 50/50 mix on the maps. My GPS shows it as private, and OnX gets their info from county records as far as I know. Guys I know that have hunted in that area for decades are surprised when I even mention it as private, as they've never seen any postings. That's because there aren't any postings. But the question remains, and until I research it through the county records I always steer clear of it.

There are also many private mining claims in this area that criss-cross all over the place, many of them only 20 acres which are long and narrow. None of them are marked at all with fences or signs, but they are still private. The ONLY way to ensure that I stay off them is to carry my GPS zoomed in and go around them. If I didn't have the GPS, I would avoid the area completely. I'm just dumbfounded that this is even an issue. Perhaps it's just the way many were raised, so someone dropped the ball at some point.

Again I am not arguing this point.
I am arguing the severity of the proposed punishment for violaters who, like you, are trying to stay within the law, but fail to, due to inaccurate gps or map info.

I just hunted in AZ where there was a lot of land marked no trespassing, yet it was not on my gps as private, Come to find out, it is BLM land a farmer leases and only has access to the rights to farm it. We have a legal right to hunt it, even to go retrieve animals from it. But he posted signs every where.

If I relied totally on signs, in this situation, I wouldn't hunt that area. But the problem is whether it's maps, gps or signs, its not always accurate.

hence the confusion to such radical punishment.
In the AZ town I live, even on my property the fencing is on state land (BLM). When I approached the County prior to purchasing it, the replied, "yes many property boundaries in Pa Paz county are inaccurate, but they have been that way so long, we allow it"

I am all for owning my responsibility to do due diligence to stay on public, but some times the maps are wrong, the gps is wrong, and if you're in an area where the land owner will pursue the punishment of the proposed bill like in Id, you're in deep trouble.

In some instances, I feel this is wrong. In some it may be justified, but not in all.

 

[Randle]

Ok so I just happened to watch Idaho Reports on Dish . The way it was explained is..Idaho already has a trespass law that is broken into three legs
1. Civil
2. Criminal
3. Fish and Game
Fish and game already has a 3 strikes it's a felony
What Judy Boyle and this bill are trying to do is make it the same for the criminal leg
During the hearings , the sheriff's association and idaho persecuting attorneys association were not consulted on this so as they read thru it there were real concerns and flaws:: possibly unconstitutional and indefensible in court so they weren't sure what to do.
Sending to amending could make it worse. REP Bell recommended they just send it thru. so here we are.

 

[Randle]

Seems to me it is aimed at all people that recreate not hunters . Because F &G already have this type of law

 

[Mtnboy]

Ok 5Miles, so what if your GPS is off by 100' and you're actually smack in the middle of one of those mining claims?

I guess you shoulda been raised better and not been so entitled to follow your beloved GPS right?

 

[cuerro viejo]

A map isn't going to be accurate enough in the north idaho jungle to keep you out of trouble. How do you determine exactly where you are?. When you can't see landmarks to use? Terrain association can only get you so close.

If you can’t hunt an area with out signage because it’s that borderline, I wouldn’t hunt, hike,camp, breath around it. Period, a lot of safer options out there

I grew up around large tribal reservation tracts, guess what you didn’t do.... you want to flirt with Federal trespass, good luck. You know the game you are playing when doing so.

 

[mfllood3800]

If you can’t hunt an area with out signage because it’s that borderline, I wouldn’t hunt, hike,camp, breath around it. Period, a lot of safer options out there

I grew up around large tribal reservation tracts, guess what you didn’t do.... you want to flirt with Federal trespass, good luck. You know the game you are playing when doing so.

Yet if you watch some of Randy Newbergs videos, he repeats himself declaring over and over, some of these areas are the "best areas to hunt", or "best areas to put in for a tag". The reason is they are so checker boarded with private/public, most people wont go in there.

I agree , some of the least pressured areas are the ones it is either too difficult in terrain, with no trail access, or too, cut up with parcels of private.

The fact is I have a legal right to hunt the public, and where public and private meet, yet there is legal access to the public thru the private, I will take advantage of that.


This argument is over users of public lands don't have a responsibility to stay of private, its why is this bill being presented with such a severity of punishment, especially if there are already laws on the books to handle violations, even different degrees of them?

If you have ever hunted in wilderness areas with mining out fits scattered in and out, or private parcels that are up in the benches or mountains, you would know it is difficult sometimes to validate your location, with out a GPS system. And these aren't always accurate enough to prevent violations.

I suspect some people who are in this discussion have never hunted back country wilderness and relied on GPS or maps.
It isn't cut and dry in every wilderness.

I am heading to Id in Sept for elk and then for deer.
The areas I am going to explore are in safer areas, but there is private in some areas I have marked as possible.

I wont stay away from an area cause it has private areas checkered thru out it. I will utilize the info I have access to and rely on that.

 

[cuerro viejo]

Obviously if stricter laws are being pushed its an issue.

Randy advocates it’s up to YOU and it’s YOUR responsibility to be aware of private boundaries, period.

Again many many states are this way, and all tribal /reservation Land so I don’t see the issue.

 

[Mtnboy]

Looks like this could be going to a Vote as soon as Tuesday. Seems like they are trying to push this through as fast as possible before anyone has time to respond or put in input....that doesn't seem fishy at all....

Do those of you who don't have a problem with this find it at all odd that the law as it stands now was put forth after input from all sorts of user groups, land owners, tribes and Fish & Game, yet this new law has input from virtually no one?

Of course the Wilkes Brothers' attorney had input when they testified and the Farm Bureau also had input as their representative made a joke during testimony about how any farmer who paid taxes was "doing something wrong" hmmmmm

 

[TheTone]

Obviously if stricter laws are being pushed its an issue.

Randy advocates it’s up to YOU and it’s YOUR responsibility to be aware of private boundaries, period.

Again many many states are this way, and all tribal /reservation Land so I don’t see the issue.

It really wasn't that big of an issue; its just deep pockets protecting there interests. Got to love an Idaho politician pushing legislation to benefit non Idahoans (wilks bros). Also no surprise to see farm bureau pushing it as well, as they truly are no friend to hunters or wildlife.

To say all tribal/reservation land is also quite inaccurate, very few reservations function the same

 

[IdahoElk]

That’s my point, it was already private property, the burden of seeing if it’s still ok to hunt isn’t and shouldn’t be on the new landowner Etc, it’s on the guy that doesn’t own it.

If it’s not your property and you don’t have expressed written permission to hunt or cross it for that year, then don’t hunt/cross it.

As far as marking property, that’s a simple one, if you aren’t sure don’t go there.

This sounds great for the average law abiding citizen but most caught on the ranch where I work don't give a flying flip about property boundaries or game laws.
Even after tripling the amount of required signage required, catching trespassers/poachers on camera standing right next to the signs,they still argue they had no idea they were wrong,having no signage on your property is just asking to have every idiot in the area hunt your property.
They need to make fine amounts that really hurt,right now it's a joke.

 

[Billinsd]

Do we all agree that a felony is too extreem?? I have empathy for the land owners. Some people are terrible and society is getting worse. Hunting is hard enough. I wish I wasn't so addicted to it. It's become very complicated and extremely difficult with so many regulations, responsibilities and hazards. I tell people who are interested in hunting. Dont even think about it unless you really, really want to do it. Its not a casual sport, there is a lot to learn and know and it can be very unforgiving.
I don't encourge my kids to hunt, because of stuff like this. I'm real haggard and weary living my entire life in California. I'm very respective of private property and teach my kids the same. I'm looking at retiring in Idaho, Nevada, or Utah. Looks like I can't run away from California to some perfect state, I have to accept that society is going to hell in a handbasket and prepare myself and children for the future. Sincerely Bill