Monos vs. Lead. Which do you choose and why?

[Drenalin]

 

[ARK_Ginger]

I see what you did there.

Lol.

To be clear I’m not on the lead free bandwagon. Those studies did show absorption and referenced other studies that also show absorption, but it seemed as though the levels were under intervention levels in the blood. There are a lot of variables to look at in studies like that and there should be much more research done to quantify the risks involved in meat with inorganic lead.

If I was truly worried about it I would go have my blood tested to see if I had elevated levels. Some people might call that anecdotal, but I’ve ate lead killed game my entire life and can assess my risk going forward with lead killed game.

 

[BjornF16]

Now that we have moved on, which might not be possible for this dumpster fire of a thread, can we talk about performance comparisons between lead and mono? I want to hear opinions on which are more lethal, efficient, and accurate, and why. I don't want to speak for everyone but I would prefer to take away more than just raptor mortality statistics

Here are my anecdotes on lead vs monos:

I’ve only had one impressive kill with monos, and that was on a 250 lb axis deer at 250 yards in the boiler room from a braked 7mm RM (mv was ~ 3200 fps) using 139 GMX. All other monos into boiler room took longer to die like when I was mistakenly using 129 Interbonds out of a Grendel.

My anecdotes using SST, ELD-X and ELD-M resulted in quicker kills/shorter runs than monos or bonded bullets.

Regarding the above anecdotal method, I’m discounting any CNS shots because it doesn’t matter what bullet is used.

YMMV

 

[fwafwow]

 

[fwafwow]

 

[fwafwow]

Lol.

To be clear I’m not on the lead free bandwagon. Those studies did show absorption and referenced other studies that also show absorption, but it seemed as though the levels were under intervention levels in the blood. There are a lot of variables to look at in studies like that and there should be much more research done to quantify the risks involved in meat with inorganic lead.

Sorry, I got meme side tracked. Yes, I was about to delve into the longer of the studies. I had gotten to the point that it didn't seem subject to much debate (famous last words!) that lead from a rifle projectile could be spread out more than at least I would have thought. I had not yet gone through what analysis has been done on lead in meat eaten by humans. I will do so, especially since I expect this thread to be locked soon. FWIW, some of the resources that @Rick M. cited included a few statements that did confirm that for most adult game eaters, eating meat that could contain lead wouldn't be that harmful (paraphrasing).

 

[fwafwow]

 

[BjornF16]

The "some dude" in this instance is a research scientist, Jim Heffelfinger. In the article, he references several studies (though he doesn't provide links to them). Carry on.

About the Author
A wildlife biologist with degrees from the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point and Texas A&M University-Kingsville, Jim Heffelfinger has worked for state and federal wildlife agencies, universities and the private sector.

 

[Drenalin]

About the Author
A wildlife biologist with degrees from the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point and Texas A&M University-Kingsville, Jim Heffelfinger has worked for state and federal wildlife agencies, universities and the private sector.

Yeah, I read that, then googled him.

 

[fwafwow]

About the Author
A wildlife biologist with degrees from the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point and Texas A&M University-Kingsville, Jim Heffelfinger has worked for state and federal wildlife agencies, universities and the private sector.

Clearly a libtard socialist! (TFPIC)

 

[Billy Goat]

Yes copper can become free in plumbing due to the acidity and Na+ levels in softened water. The newer plastic plumbing is also bad for your health. It is a petroleum based product with added chemicals to stabilize it. Those can also leach from exposure to heat, acid and softened water.

Toxicity can occur from anything that is taken into a living organism. It just depends on how much is taken in, the physiology and state of the organism. You can have a toxic level of Ca+, Na+, K+, Mg+, Vit C, Vit D, and others including water in an organism and it can become fatal. For nitrates in drinking water, 10 ppm is the level that has to be reached before action has to be taken, legally. But why do I even want to have any in my system with the known effects that it has.

One of the reasons that lead is a large issue for raptors is also the length of their natural life. That is what is their life span with a "natural" cause of death. It is fairly short in the scheme of other animals, so the heightened effects of lead to them dramatically shortens their ability to stay within the gene pool.

Actually copper is highly toxic to sheep, so maybe we should get that train going.

 

[z987k]

I’ve used both, but currently using lead based bullets.

I don’t buy into the lead tainted meat propaganda. First, most lead poisoning occurs from organic based lead and aerosolized lead. Lead used in bullets is inorganic and stable. It gets passed through pretty quick.

This article written by a guy who has been using monos since 2009 yet still has varying and elevated lead levels…why? Other factors. Read for yourself

Health Risks of Lead in Venison: Gray Toxin or Red Herring? | Deer & Deer Hunting

Find out if bird biologists' concerns about the effects of lead in venison on human health are legitimate or just an effort to save birds.

www.deeranddeerhunting.com

Absolutely no one is saying game killed with lead bullets is causing acute lead poisoning in humans. No one. Not one study.

Inorganic does not mean that stomach acid does not react with it. And the more surface area the more it will dissolve. Also stable in reference to an element means it's not radioactive not that it doesn't react with other elements. Lead is rather reactive, though not the most, as most everything is in acids.

 

[z987k]

The following lives in the unexplained anecdote side, so FWIW . . . A friend of mine is an active sportsman. He's always hunting or fishing. Somehow he had his lead levels tested and they were found to be elevated. He was advised to switch to non lead sinkers and copper bullets, which he did. It's been a few years, and his lead levels haven't dropped appreciably. His house is less than 10 years old and he's managed all other factors, so he's not sure what can be done, and it seems his medical care staff are unable to explain where it's coming from.

On the animal testing side - we've put cameras on gut piles in the past. Generally get a lot of crows and bobcats. Have gotten bears, fishers, eagles, vultures, etc, but crows and bobcats are just about a given. To this end I'm going to send some emails to see if these specific animal populations have been studied for lead levels locally. In a lot of areas of my state (WI) the deer harvest is significantly higher and more concentrated than in many western states, which you'd think would effectuate more opportunities for lead transfer through carion consumption. And while I don't have any empirical numbers to back it up, I'd say that copper bullet use is relatively low hereabouts.

And while we're at it, seems I've read about copper toxicity somewhere along the line while researching a plumbing project. Anyone care to weigh in on that and how how it could be interrelated to eating game killed with copper?

Unfortunately lead accumulates in the bones. It replaces calcium. The half life of lead in bones is 25-30 years. It will continue to cause elevated levels in the blood for most of a person's life once they've accumulated it in the bones.

 

[fwafwow]

Actually copper is highly toxic to sheep, so maybe we should get that train going.

Yes. But please start a new thread - to make for easier future searches when the new members need to find cool threads to hit 10 posts.

 

[BjornF16]

Actually copper is highly toxic to sheep, so maybe we should get that train going.

Here ya go:

Health Effects of Excess Copper - Copper in Drinking Water - NCBI Bookshelf

 

[fwafwow]

The nonsense is getting a little too strong with this one.

@Rob5589 - memes needed

 

[Rob5589]

 

[Rob5589]

 

[Rob5589]

 

[Rob5589]