How far are you shooting monos?

[thinhorn_AK]

This one was recovered from a bull moose shot at ~ 306yds. It was the only one that got. Caught, the other 2 seemed to just go right through and didn’t do much damage at all. These had a muzzle velocity of 2780fps. Bullet it a barnes ttsx 250g and the load was like 78g of rl15.

I don’t use these bullets anymore because of that experience. The animal died quickly but I’ve found the 260g accubonds to be a better bullet for my uses.

 

[Bush_man26]

338 win mag, 210 ttsx, rl19, muzzle velo of 3000. Bull elk @ 580 yards complete pass through, drt, impact velo around 2050 fps.

 

[Macintosh]

I shoot that bullet out of my 18” .308. Works great. No judgement passed, but were I in your shoes, I personally would have taken that shot without a second thought. Dead goat, easy. But if you didn’t feel right about it, you 100% made the right decision by passing.

Since its a different cartridge Im not clear if you are suggesting that bullet will expand reliably below 1900 fps, or if your rifle is shooting hot handloads and **your** rifle puts that bullet at 2300fps (or whatever) at 500 yards, etc. My rifle has the bullet hitting the goat at 1900fps, which to me is uncomfortably close to the “hardly expanded” photos on the manufacturers website. Thats the whole point of the question I asked in the first place, is that I have been aggressively lead to believe by folks on this site that below a certain velocity conventional monos do not expand significantly beyond caliber-diameter. I see a number of posts in this thread with impact velocities WELL below what others say is minimum threshold for reliable expansion (my read of “consensus” on this website puts that somewhere between 2000 and 2200fps with some highly visible people suggesting it needs to be higher for most mono bullets), so I asked what folks are using to determine the maximum effective range of the mono they are shooting. I have heard that the manufacturers minimum is generally where it expands past caliber-diameter, and the websites reflect this— but that looks an awful lot like “hardly expanded” to me. Maybe it still works fine? I’m curious what your threshold for range is where you’ll shoot with that trophy copper, and if you consider the velocity required to expand to come up with that range? Or are you just not worrying about whether the bullet expands at all?

For what its worth, below is noslers website for their e-tip, which I think (?) trophy copper is loaded with. If thats what 1800fps looks like should folks be happy with that?

 

[SDHNTR]

No idea. You ask good questions. I wouldn’t take that shot on an elk, but with that rifle and bullet on an antelope, I’m shooting. They usually die pretty easily. Assuming a good rest, proper set up, little to no wind, and the confidence of making a good shot, no problem.

FWIW, I shot a big boar hog (which absolutely are hard to kill) at just under 400 yards with my .308 and that bullet at about the same speed, and it took him off his feet and was DRT.

That said, if one is going to shoot monos at longer range, I do think there are better cartridges than the 6.5 creed.

 

[Macintosh]

Agree on the 6.5 part for sure, looking at it from a velocity perspective like that most factory options are pretty darn anemic.

 

[bgipson]

I’ve always been interested in the 270 Sherman. How much of a pain in the ass is the brass and die situation?

None of it is too bad. Just pick up some Peterson .270 Win brass from Graf's and dies direct from Rich and you're good to go. Use a 30-06 sizer to neck up to .308, then use a 7 Rem Mag sizer with the expander ball removed to neck back down (it sets the false shoulder junction and neck tension perfectly for forming) before you load. Go real easy on the forming load or you will lose some brass.

All that being said you could really ramp up performance going with a 27 Nosler but it's so overbore you're going to lose a lot of barrel life compared to the Sherman.

 

[Where's Bruce?]

Far less than everyone else.

 

[Newtosavage]

280Rem 145gr LRX @ MV 3,013fps. I‘m good velocity wise to 450-500 yards at around 4’. Out to 550-600 if I am real high up there.

I miss my .280 Rem. I do like those figures. Should be a very useful combo.

 

[nacgoat08]

I'll catch up on this thread later. Hopefully this has not been asked yet.

From all the threads lately on monos, I have come to the conclusion that they need to be pushed fast by using lighter bullets or higher powder charge. What is everyone seeing on closer ranges, 100 yds and under, on bullet performance. Are they to fast and coming apart to much to be effective?

Worth a watch if you have 20 minutes to spare.

 

[rootacres]

To me, there's no question the ballistic superiority you get with cup and core / bonded bullet over monos. I think that's one of the cons to monos. They are inherently going to get pushed around more at distance. The BC typically isn't as good. In the rifles I have used, Ive also gone lighter for caliber on bullet weight. Combine lower BC with lower weight, not a great combo for shooting far.

For me I run two loads.
7 SAUM
143 Hammer @ 3030 fps
168 VLDs @ 2835 fps

The VLDs are far superior at distance.

So far the furthest shot with the hammers was on a coues at 425yds. The bullet landed right behind the crosshair. The first shot didn't drop the deer, sent a 2nd, that bullet also landed behind the crosshair. The hammers were super accurate for me and I couldn't find VLDS, main reasons I brought them.

 

[SDHNTR]

Worth a watch if you have 20 minutes to spare.

That so called “expert” had no idea how a Berger bullet is supposed to work. He kept calling it a catastrophic failure. He’s wrong. That bullet did exactly as it’s designed to do. Stay in your tacticool lane bruh! I also don’t think a Berger provides a fair analysis to make blanket statements about cup and core bullets. Its design is very different from a traditional cup and core like a Remmy Coreloct, Hornady Interloct, Sierra Gameking, etc. Apples to Oranges.

 

[35WhelenAI]

To me, there's no question the ballistic superiority you get with cup and core / bonded bullet over monos. I think that's one of the cons to monos. They are inherently going to get pushed around more at distance. The BC typically isn't as good. In the rifles I have used, Ive also gone lighter for caliber on bullet weight. Combine lower BC with lower weight, not a great combo for shooting far.

For me I run two loads.
7 SAUM
143 Hammer @ 3030 fps
168 VLDs @ 2835 fps

The VLDs are far superior at distance.

So far the furthest shot with the hammers was on a coues at 425yds. The bullet landed right behind the crosshair. The first shot didn't drop the deer, sent a 2nd, that bullet also landed behind the crosshair. The hammers were super accurate for me and I couldn't find VLDS, main reasons I brought them.

Thanks for the experience based info. I gather you got the deer? Probably goes without saying you got it, wanted to ask what the internal damage looked like.

 

[rootacres]

Thanks for the experience based info. I gather you got the deer? Probably goes without saying you got it, wanted to ask what the internal damage looked like.

I did get the deer. So when hunting (solo especially) I prefer shoulder shots, against my better judgment I decided on the first shot to shoot textbook behind the shoulder. I figured its a big gun for a little deer, no problem. I see my first shot impact and the deer didn't fold up. It kinda stumbled forward 10 yards ish and stopped. Thats when I figured screw it, chambered a 2nd and put the crosshairs high shoulder and that was the anchor.

The first shot seemed to kinda pencil through, I don't really know what to expect with that bullet on such a small animal. A better test would have been an elk. The 2nd shot was much more devastating. The exit holes looked like I used 2 different bullets.

For what it's worth, in the last 2 seasons ive watched 6 bull elk go down. Shot distances from about 175 to 325, 3 fell to Bergers, 3 fell to TTSX. These were the results.

300 WM - 180gr TTSX - 250yds - Shoulder shot - bull went ~10 yds
300 WM - 180gr TTSX - 275yds - Shoulder shot - bull folded
300 WM - 185gr Berger - 175yds - Shoulder shot (2 shots) - bull went ~10 yds
7SAUM - 168gr Berger - 325yds - Shoulder shot - bull went ~10 yds
7SAUM - 168gr Berger - 300yds - Shoulder shot - bull went ~10 yds
300 WM - 180gr TTSX - 175yds - behind shoulder and shoulder shot (4 shots) - went ~80 yds

*It's my opinion that sometimes with the monos if you don't hit something hard they have a tendency to pencil through animals. When you hit something hard they deliver a ton of energy. That last bull with the 300 WM my dad hit with a lethal behind the shoulder shot, the bull didn't react much and started running away. Two behind the shoulder follow up shots and the bull is still on its feet. The 4th shot was in the shoulder and dumped him. We recovered all the shoulder hit TTSX bullets, they look exactly how you'd expect them to look. Who knows what the bullets did that burned right through.

**The Bergers basically penetrate a couple inches and then break up, the damage is crazy.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Haven't had a shot beyond 340 yds with a Barnes X/TSX/TTSX. With that, they haven't been below a reasonable velocity for expansion and my aim is behind the shoulder.

IME, the Original X would expand, bore a large hole through the heart/lungs, maybe make large chunks out of things. Animals didn't go far, or anywhere at all.

The TSX was similar, just a bit more velocity was there for the taking with the ringed shank when working up loads.

The TTSX is a different beast. Expansion is more rapid and tissue is chunked and tattered noticeably more than the X or TSX. On the whole, the tip driving back into a much larger diameter cavity compared to the X/TSX does make a difference. Expansion threshold isn't any lower to my knowledge, but expansion happens much faster and visible damage is greater based on field necropsy. However, animals have been no less dead with one vs the others and can't say any have traveled more or less distance.

I have some 200 gr Power Hammers now for my 35 Whelen AI. No field experience, but based on what I've read... Thinking out loud, those could potentially be more destructive and consistent than they already are if there was a tip to initiate expansion and might help with the BC. Have no idea on the extra production cost to implement that, but man, seems like it would be a pretty good combo.

 

[MTMeatHunter]

@Formidilosus, appreciate your input on this. If you had to shoot monos, what’s the best muzzle velocity/ bullet combo for up to elk out to 450 or so? And if handloading wasn’t on the table, is there a mono easy button for cartridge choice and factory load with the same up-to-elk-out-to-450 parameters? Thanks in advance!

 

[SDHNTR]

Just out to 450? Most any of em out of most cartridges will do just fine. Add a couple hundred yards and it start to matter more. As does cartridge choice.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Muzzle velocity is not what you need, per se. It is retained velocity at the end-game range the desired performance is needed.

By all means, use factory rated mv as a guide, and run the numbers on a ballistics calculator to see if it meets your criteria. The catch here is factory loads can vary 100+/- fps from rifle to rifle.

When you have picked a factory load, a chrono is great if you have access to one, to know exactly the MV so you can find the outer limits of range based on retained velocity for expansion. I am not Form, however the Barnes TTSX is a good bullet for me and they have as much of a selection as anyone, IMO.

But again, retained velocity is what you want.

 

[MTMeatHunter]

Muzzle velocity is not what you need, per se. It is retained velocity at the end-game range the desired performance is needed.

By all means, use factory rated mv as a guide, and run the numbers on a ballistics calculator to see if it meets your criteria. I am not Form, however the Barnes TTSX is a good bullet for me and they have as much of a selection as anyone, IMO.

Once you have picked a factory load, a chrono is great to know exactly the MV so you can find the outer limits of range based on retained velocity for expansion.

But again, retained velocity is what you want.

Agreed. I shoot the 165ttsx out of a 300 win mag at a mild 3100 mv no further than 400. I don’t like monos below 2400fps at impact if I can help it. I’m not worried, even slightly, about that combo in those parameters as it’s done well on quite a few critters for me. Merely curious what Form’s answer is if lead wasn’t an option for him.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Agreed. I shoot the 165ttsx out of a 300 win mag at a mild 3100 mv no further than 400. I don’t like monos below 2400fps if I can help it. I’m not worried, even slightly, about that combo in those parameters as it’s done well on quite a few critters for me. Merely curious what Form’s answer is if lead wasn’t an option for him.

 

[clperry]

I think I remember him saying he would move if it came to that.


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