JGRaider
WKR
Yep.....no agenda.Funny how data from scientists, DNRs, and university departments are "propaganda", but an article from some dude on a hunting site is your preferred single source of truth.
Yep.....no agenda.Funny how data from scientists, DNRs, and university departments are "propaganda", but an article from some dude on a hunting site is your preferred single source of truth.
I see where you are going on that. The overall health of raptor species in general is strong, despite toxic levels of lead being found in a high number of individual birds that were tested. The same reason hunters take individual animals in order to ensure the overall well-being of the species.Yes, absolutely no gray area at the individual level looking at a number of species using a number of approaches.
I'm saying that metallic lead is toxic to birds, absolutely. For sure in my opinion damaging enough for me to not want to leave it in gut piles if I have adequate alternatives. Taking a conservative approach for me is fine since the alternatives are fine. If I lost animals due to the poor performance of monos, I'd think differently, but that has not been the case for me.I see where you are going on that. The overall health of raptor species in general is strong, despite toxic levels of lead being found in a high number of individual birds that were tested.
Yet that's the only "source" that you provided to back up your reasoning for why you "don’t buy into the lead tainted meat propaganda".First, I didn’t claim this is my only source of information.
Again... let's try to refrain from making these types of statements without backing them up with data, otherwise they are essentially meaningless. I've posted several studies that directly contradict this claim. Let me reiterate that we are not talking about acute lead poisoning here, we are talking about adverse effects over time.First, most lead poisoning occurs from organic based lead and aerosolized lead. Lead used in bullets is inorganic and stable. It gets passed through pretty quick.
Funny how data from scientists, DNRs, and university departments are "propaganda", but an article from some dude on a hunting site is your preferred single source of truth.
Thanks for pointing that out.The "some dude" in this instance is a research scientist, Jim Heffelfinger. In the article, he references several studies (though he doesn't provide links to them). Carry on.
Yes. It's dismissive to make statements that assert there's no real issue or negative relationship between raptors and lead, or humans and lead, while providing absolutely no data or research of their own, yet dismissing data / research provided from multiple external sources. Again, it's one thing to have an opinion that raptors / condors aren't being killed via lead poisoning, or that lead is good for humans, but it's altogether different to assert it as fact without any foundational support. The "just trust me" system in a nonstarter for me.
I don't know, but I'd love to read some data if you've got it. Hopefully you're not about to tell me that it's made zero difference, provide no data / research supporting it, and expect me to absorb it as fact?
Enlighten me. Please.
What straw man? You're the one positing questions as a way to prove a point. I'm literally the only single person in this thread that has posted any legitimate data... everyone that has come out against it has been anecdotal or whataboutist. Absolutely nothing of substance.
Form, I would absolutely love to read over any research you've been a part of or are aware of that may shed light on both human / lead interaction as well as raptor / lead or raptor / turbine or raptor / lawn gnomes interactions that may further educate me on the subject. However, and with all do respect, when all you say is "I've been involved with... " and "I've heard it stated by x..." it's going to be difficult to take you seriously. I hope that's understandable.
Please, for the love of god, show me some data. Otherwise, what I've presented is all we've got, regardless of the holes you may want to poke in it. You don't trust multiple DNRs? Multiple separate university departments across several continents? All coming to the same conclusions with visual references and statistical data? Well, then maybe truth just isn't what you're after.
Surely there's no background lead in Europe from 2 world wars and the 500 years of cannon and musket war preceeding those calamities.Let me Google that for you, Grundy...
Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969722011093?via=ihub
Steve from Hammer told me bc doesn't matter and brian litz doesn't know how to measure it. We're they incorrect?Just recognize that hammer bullets bcs are way lower than what is advertised on the website.
And everybody has a PhD in Wildlife Biology and Population Dynamics....
The Greeks also used a s ton of lead. Thanks for pointing that out.
Yeah, we certainly haven’t seen any propaganda and self-serving science come from universities and scientists over the last 2 years…cough, Covid, cough.Funny how data from scientists, DNRs, and university departments are "propaganda", but an article from some dude on a hunting site is your preferred single source of truth.
Surely there's no background lead in Europe from 2 world wars and the 500 years of cannon and musket war preceeding those calamities.
Are you serious he said that? A bullet manufacturer saying bc doesn’t matter?Steve from Hammer told me bc doesn't matter and brian litz doesn't know how to measure it. We're they incorrect?
Yeah, we certainly haven’t seen any propaganda and self-serving science come from universities and scientists over the last 2 years…cough, Covid, cough.
DNR’s haven’t ever done the same thing, nah, never…..cough, salmon/steelhead, cough, wolves, cough, cougars, cough.
3.3. Comparison of the post-ban proportion of raptors with clinical concentrations of lead in the liver in Denmark with expected values based upon the logistic model of data from countries without a complete ban
We used Model 5, which includes data on liver levels of lead from countries without a ban on the use of lead shotgun ammunition for all hunting, to calculate expected values of PPb for Denmark for the 124 raptors of ten species sampled there by Kanstrup et al. (2019) after use of lead shotgun ammunition for hunting was banned in Denmark. Kanstrup et al. (2019) found that liver lead did not exceed the threshold for clinical effects in any of the birds sampled. The number of clinical cases expected from this sample, based upon Model 5 fitted to data from countries without a ban, was 3.77 cases (Table 3). The Poisson probability of observing no clinical cases if the expected number is 3.77 is 0.023. Hence, this result indicates that the prevalence of clinical levels of lead in the livers of raptors in Denmark after the ban was lower than that expected from the regression model of prevalences in countries without such a ban, including results from Denmark before the ban.
Multiple times. At this very moment on longe range hunting forum aka hammertime 2.0 there's a lively conversation about how bc doesn't matter, or isn't real, or can't be calculated on hp bullets or bullets with custom boat tails.Are you serious he said that? A bullet manufacturer saying bc doesn’t matter?
That pretty much seals the deal that if I ever decide to shoot mono it will never be a Hammer.