Monos vs. Lead. Which do you choose and why?

[jcaud]

Both, mostly depends on what the gun likes and availability. Mostly less but had good luck with mono on a doe this fall

 

[Drenalin]

Lastly, I'm not going to go back and forth with people on this thread regarding interest groups, government conspiracies, or personal anecdotes. I'm simply presenting my personal choice and the research / data behind my decision. I encourage everyone else to do what makes them happy.

You've become quite the little evangelist since posting this . (Humor intended)

For the record, I don't personally care whether you shoot lead or monos, nor do the reasons behind your decision matter to me. I also don't care where you stand on covid or wolves. It is odd to me that a lot of people have such a strong desire to beat others over the head with their thoughts/opinion/beliefs, presumably in an effort to "convert" the other party. Or maybe for another reason that isn't clear to me. I don't know about everyone else, but after seeing it on every page of this thread, I think I see where you stand on the issue; why keep beating the drum? What has changed for you over the last 10-11 pages?

I personally shoot lead bullets. As far as I know, I've never in my life fired a mono. I'm pretty much okay with that and don't plan on changing until something happens that forces me to. I've read several articles and studies available online since seeing this issue come up on Rokslide, and most of it points to lead in game meat (at least venison) being, essentially, a non issue. I understand there's some lead in there, my understanding is that it's not significant enough for me to be concerned with.

I also understand that lead poisoning is a bigger issue for birds, particularly scavengers. I'm not convinced that studies I've read demonstrate anything conclusive, and in fact, many of them are confusing because they present contradictory information to support the same stance. Also, I haven't seen anything that makes me think lead is contributing to a population level problem for affected species. I frankly don't care about a "bird," whereas I might be more inclined to care about "birds" if there appeared to be a reason for concern. I realize how that could sound, and I don't care. I make no claim to altruism.

Before it's asked, no, I will not post any links to anything I've read on the topic. Every one of us could cherry pick stuff online to reinforce our own positions, but it ultimately won't matter. I doubt this thread accomplishes anything to change anyone's mind any more than most other threads of this ilk have ever accomplished. I doubt that any number of internet links pasted into a post moves the needle for anyone reading.

I'm hopeful that the same things won't need to be rehashed very many more times in this thread, and it can devolve into a meme show soon.

 

[Rick M.]

You've become quite the little evangelist since posting this . (Humor intended)

For the record, I don't personally care whether you shoot lead or monos, nor do the reasons behind your decision matter to me. I also don't care where you stand on covid or wolves. It is odd to me that a lot of people have such a strong desire to beat others over the head with their thoughts/opinion/beliefs, presumably in an effort to "convert" the other party. Or maybe for another reason that isn't clear to me. I don't know about everyone else, but after seeing it on every page of this thread, I think I see where you stand on the issue; why keep beating the drum? What has changed for you over the last 10-11 pages?

I personally shoot lead bullets. As far as I know, I've never in my life fired a mono. I'm pretty much okay with that and don't plan on changing until something happens that forces me to. I've read several articles and studies available online since seeing this issue come up on Rokslide, and most of it points to lead in game meat (at least venison) being, essentially, a non issue. I understand there's some lead in there, my understanding is that it's not significant enough for me to be concerned with.

I also understand that lead poisoning is a bigger issue for birds, particularly scavengers. I'm not convinced that studies I've read demonstrate anything conclusive, and in fact, many of them are confusing because they present contradictory information to support the same stance. Also, I haven't seen anything that makes me think lead is contributing to a population level problem for affected species. I frankly don't care about a "bird," whereas I might be more inclined to care about "birds" if there appeared to be a reason for concern. I realize how that could sound, and I don't care. I make no claim to altruism.

Before it's asked, no, I will not post any links to anything I've read on the topic. Every one of us could cherry pick stuff online to reinforce our own positions, but it ultimately won't matter. I doubt this thread accomplishes anything to change anyone's mind any more than most other threads of this ilk have ever accomplished. I doubt that any number of internet links pasted into a post moves the needle for anyone reading.

I'm hopeful that the same things won't need to be rehashed very many more times in this thread, and it can devolve into a meme show soon.

Humor is welcome!

I'm honestly not trying to evangelize. I just stand behind the research I spent days / weeks pouring over, and try to encourage others to use data instead of emotions / anecdotes when it pertains to stuff like this. It's frustratingly common for people to make bold claims without supporting them, and that's a bit of a pet peeve of mine. Hopefully some users find the back and forth helpful, and those that don't can simply find another thread to read.

 

[Drenalin]

Humor is welcome!

I'm honestly not trying to evangelize. I just stand behind the research I spent days / weeks pouring over, and try to encourage others to use data instead of emotions / anecdotes when it pertains to stuff like this. It's frustratingly common for people to make bold claims without supporting them, and that's a bit of a pet peeve of mine. Hopefully some users find the back and forth helpful, and those that don't can simply find another thread to read.

What you describe as "anecdotes" others describe as their "experiences." That's a tough one to overcome.

Post edited (portion removed) as to not be inflammatory.

 

[BjornF16]

I don't follow the logic of continuously using covid as a escape hatch for critical thinking. Do you just type "covid, cough, covid" and then you're suddenly released from the burdens of critical analysis or sound argument? That must make for a blissfully ignorant existence.

I'll bite, though.

Give me a single, concrete example of universities / scientists putting out any Covid-related propaganda or "self-serving" science. There should be a plethora to choose from since this seems to be a common theme. I'm only asking for one. Then, please tell me how that relates to copper ammunition, lead in the environment, and the harmful effects of lead in both humans and wildlife.

That’s easy…there are plenty of examples

1. Efficacy of statin drugs (relative vs absolute efficacy)
2. Efficacy of mRNA COVID vaccines (relative vs absolute efficacy)
3. Study refuting other studies of Ivermectin efficacy on COVID (using less than recommended dosages)
4. Study refuting other studies of Hydroxychloroquine efficacy on COVID (by using toxic dosages much higher than recommended)
5. Study refuting efficacy of Hydroxychloroquine on COVID (data manipulation)

Number 5 was pretty well publicized in LSM:

The Lancet retracts large study on hydroxychloroquine

"A first-year statistics major could tell you about major flaws in the design of the analysis," one expert said.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Drenalin]

View attachment 485925View attachment 485926

 

[fwafwow]

I was deep into drafting (another) post to weigh in on some portion and then I read the latest few posts, including by @Drenalin. Good job - you two saved me (and everyone else) some time.

FWIW, I enjoy when there is an academic discussion of an issue when someone can raise an issue, make a point and there is some back and forth based on more than raw emotion, ad hominem attacks, etc. But I should be more realistic. This is the internet.

As for bullet performance, at least one of the sources cited by @Rick M. went into some detail about bullet comparisons, including some copper vs. lead!

 

[Rick M.]

Now that we have moved on, which might not be possible for this dumpster fire of a thread, can we talk about performance comparisons between lead and mono? I want to hear opinions on which are more lethal, efficient, and accurate, and why. I don't want to speak for everyone but I would prefer to take away more than just raptor mortality statistics

Maybe start your own thread on specifically lead vs mono lethality? Because that's not what OP asked...

Also, it's weird how people conversing back and forth is always a "dumpster fire". Someone asks for data, the data is provided, and somehow that equates to a "dumpster fire". Wild. Just move on to another topic, or go create your own thread. No one is forcing you to read through this one.

 

[Rick M.]

As for bullet performance, at least one of the sources cited by @Rick M. went into some detail about bullet comparisons, including some copper vs. lead!

Shhh!! Reading a "novel" is asking too much from some members!

 

[Drenalin]

 

[fwafwow]

 

[Forestryguy]

And while we're at it, seems I've read about copper toxicity somewhere along the line while researching a plumbing project. Anyone care to weigh in on that and how how it could be interrelated to eating game killed with copper?

Yes copper can become free in plumbing due to the acidity and Na+ levels in softened water. The newer plastic plumbing is also bad for your health. It is a petroleum based product with added chemicals to stabilize it. Those can also leach from exposure to heat, acid and softened water.

Toxicity can occur from anything that is taken into a living organism. It just depends on how much is taken in, the physiology and state of the organism. You can have a toxic level of Ca+, Na+, K+, Mg+, Vit C, Vit D, and others including water in an organism and it can become fatal. For nitrates in drinking water, 10 ppm is the level that has to be reached before action has to be taken, legally. But why do I even want to have any in my system with the known effects that it has.

One of the reasons that lead is a large issue for raptors is also the length of their natural life. That is what is their life span with a "natural" cause of death. It is fairly short in the scheme of other animals, so the heightened effects of lead to them dramatically shortens their ability to stay within the gene pool.

 

[fwafwow]

 

[Drenalin]

 

[Rick M.]

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Was honestly curious about the bioavailability of lead particles that could end up in meat. Found these two studies.

Marination increases the bioavailability of lead in game meat shot with lead ammunition | Journal of Nutritional Science | Cambridge Core

Marination increases the bioavailability of lead in game meat shot with lead ammunition - Volume 10

www.cambridge.org

Bioaccessibility of Pb from Ammunition in Game Meat Is Affected by Cooking Treatment

The presence of lead (Pb) ammunition residues in game meat has been widely documented, yet little information exists regarding the bioaccessibility of this Pb contamination. We study how cooking treatment (recipe) can affect Pb bioaccessibility in meat ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I guess there is a good correlation of marinating the meat with acidic marinades and raising the bioavailability of lead.

The first study does show very low concentrations of lead outside 20cm (7.9 in) radius of the bullet path.

Just something the chew on

 

[Rick M.]

 

[fwafwow]

 

[fwafwow]

Just something the chew on

I see what you did there.

 

[fwafwow]