.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[deer_hunter132]

Range and wind as Shraggs stated, but to the “angle” statement- anything that isn’t a direct chest shot I don’t want a narrow wounding bullet.
I’ve shot enough animals going away, whether an initial shot, or follow up shots, to see that full penetration to the chest is not a guarantee. Far from it. I’ve recovered quite a few Barnes TSX’s in stomachs that’s failed to penetrate to the diaphragm- including from a 375 H&H.
Mostly the “angle” argument comes from people with very little, and more often- no killing on very hard quartering away or straight facing away shots, and are just repeating gun writer BS.

when i was a kid, dad & i walked up on a bedded doe. 7RM @ 40yds. found that bullet sitting on the stomach iirc. "nice mushroom" like the magazines show ya. some factory ammo, likely a soft point. still to this day i have no idea how it didnt go thru.

 

[77TMK]

when i was a kid, dad & i walked up on a bedded doe. 7RM @ 40yds. found that bullet sitting on the stomach iirc. "nice mushroom" like the magazines show ya. some factory ammo, likely a soft point. still to this day i have no idea how it didnt go thru.

For any given bullet:

High impact velocity

• Most expansion
• Less penetration

Lower impact velocity

• Less expansion
• More penetration

I've taken deer at distance with 178 ELD-X in 308 Win and it passes through with a moderate wound channel. I've shot similar size deer at a stone's throw distance with the same load and rifle, and it didn't even make it into the opposing shoulder but liquified the entire chest cavity. Bullet construction matters a lot, and every bullet has an optimal velocity range for a desired effect.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Mostly the “angle” argument comes from people with very little, and more often- no killing on very hard quartering away or straight facing away shots, and are just repeating gun writer BS.

Lol.

 

[shooterrdy]

.30 cal. No replacement for displacement!
“Thats it, that’s all you got to say”

 

[77TMK]

.30 cal. No replacement for displacement!
“Thats it, that’s all you got to say”

....to make yourself sound like a fool.

Myself and others here have killed more animals here with smaller calibers this year than the average hunter, and you'd be in trouble trying to tell me what animal was shot with a 77 TMK or a 180 gr 308 Winchester.

 

[Abirkle]

Shoot a 300 RUM


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[Formidilosus]

Lol.

How many deer or elk have you shot facing straight away?

How many deer or elk have you shot quartering away such that you had to go through a hip to angle to the chest?

 

[gabenzeke]

Shoot a 300 RUM


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Why?

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[Abirkle]

Because I have never seen an animal “too dead”


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[gabenzeke]

Because I have never seen an animal “too dead”


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You clearly don't understand why people are having this conversation.

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[35WhelenAI]

How many deer or elk have you shot facing straight away?

How many deer or elk have you shot quartering away such that you had to go through a hip to angle to the chest?

Maybe it'd be helpful to define what a hard angle is. I think of them as quartering away or towards, however the examples you share are going away.

With that, the examples above are to me in the extreme case, and not shots to take on the first one (for me anyway). Most if not all of the discussion is about the most options on a good first shot, with minimal meat destruction (the two points I stick to) so it's my bad I didn't consider the above shots as a first shot option. I think you were thinking I was.

To answer, I have not gone through a hip deliberately and would not take a straight away Texas heart shot on an unwounded animal.

Have come in back far enough quartering away on one elk that the 250X was in the opposite side neck meat upon cutting it up in the field. Another elk hit quartering towards with a 200X at the shoulder/chest juncture and found as a bump under the opposite side rear quarter rump on skinning. For deer, a good number of angled frontal shots that exited behind the ribs or out the opposite rear quarter. As well, a few deer going away with the bullet angling out the opposite shoulder. I've only recovered two Barnes bullets in all the years, the 200X and 250X mentioned above. The bulk of my shots have been broadside or slightly quartering either way. At that point most any bullet will do the job, it's a matter of how much meat a hunter is willing to waste based on premeditated bullet choice.

Not necessarily throwing out an olive branch here (yet), however if what we are talking about is a different thing to the other, what we have here is a failure to communicate.

 

[JGRaider]

I'm not afraid to take a hard quartering away shot on a big buck. Through the hip with a 160AB from my Tikka 7mag is quite effective. Bullet found under skin in off shoulder.

 

[KHntr]

Shoot a 300 RUM


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I shot a pile of elk and moose with a 300 RUM and mono’s and bonded bullets.

Now I get faster kills and more damage from an 88 ELD m from my 223AI.
They are absolutely more dead more fasterer with 88’s.

 

[Huntin Fool]

I’ve shot enough coyotes with a .223, that I’m not sure why anyone would want to use one on a big game animal

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

I’ve shot enough coyotes with a .223, that I’m not sure why anyone would want to use one on a big game animal

With what bullets? Ever shot one with a 77gr TMK?

 

[Lou270]

The key to a good going away shot is take their nards off. This happened to be with a 300 Win but a 223 is equally effective for this technique

Lou

 

[FCCDerek]

You’re not far off - even I’d say it’s like the first 10 years repeated 5 times. Not much has changed from that first ten years. My best rifle doesn’t shoot any better than my best rifle then, inexperienced shooters today have the same issues they did then. Personal growth in the shooting sports happens in the same stages, and the same limiting factors apply to anyone shooting/ hunting long range.

Today, new shooters, rather than being taught how to shoot a rifle or pistol with recoil, how to train their brains to not react to recoil, they are taught to not try and don’t question why. You and others have enabled a generation to not try or fail on their own with anything with more recoil than yesteryears varmint guns.

Since you’re very keen on 9mm - how do you train new shooters with it? Sitting at any range across the country, it doesn’t take long to see shots hitting the ground many feet under 25 yard targets. Do you simply tell new shooters to avoid 9mm? I doubt it. You probably teach them how to handle the pistol and how to train to avoid flinching.

For one, you don't have a new shooter shooting at 25 yards. You teach them starting with dry fire. Holding the pistol out with a dime, washer, small hex nut or what have you balanced on the slide. You have them practice pulling the trigger and keeping that from falling off. Once they are successfully doing that, you move onto live fire. 3 yards. You want them to see the bullet hitting where they're aiming. If you're training them to shoot at 25 yards without training the basics first you're a terrible instructor and they're likely going to be a terrible shooter until someone unfucks the bad habits they built. Like a new shooter to rifles shooting something with a ton of recoil rather than starting them with a 223 or 357 lever gun. Something they can learn on without getting beat up.

 

[Huntin Fool]

With what bullets? Ever shot one with a 77gr TMK?

Nope 55 grain sp and 50 gr v max, same bullets out of a 22-250 makes a lot of difference

 

[Ucsdryder]

You typically don’t need 4 well rounds with a 30 magnum..

This whole shoot them 20 times until they die then call it a win is idiotic..

Fact it there’s allot of times you only get one shot, and shooting a small match bullet that typically leave a poor blood trail isn’t the right answer.


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[OMF]

Hey @Ucsdryder, don't knock that 6mm Bangmore! I took out more rats when we had chickens with that thing than I can could count. LOL

Seriously, love my little Red Ryder.