.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[Ucsdryder]

Hey @Ucsdryder, don't knock that 6mm Bangmore! I took out more rats when we had chickens with that thing than I can could count. LOL

Seriously, love my little Red Ryder.

Haha same. I’d put a large sum of money I killed more critters than anybody on this forum with mine, or the 4 I had. You can shoot out a barrel in them, maybe not the conventional way.

 

[KHntr]

Nope 55 grain sp and 50 gr v max, same bullets out of a 22-250 makes a lot of difference

Long for caliber bullets aren’t even in the same conversation as 55/50 gr offerings when it comes to 22 centerfires and big game.

I was adamantly against the mere idea of using a 22 cf on deer for a long time, now my main moose and elk rifles are 223AI’s stuffed with 88 ELD m’s. Well, to be honest, those are my everything rifles.

Bullets matter more than headstamps.

 

[FredH]

How do you judge what branches are too thick to shoot though? How thick can they be before hitting them deflects the bullet? Is this a learned skill on animals or did you work it out with bundles of sticks on the range? Do you get more wallop if that 250 gr round nose is tumbling for the last 30 yds and punches them in the pelvis going sideways?

Not talking about shooting through branches at all. Talking about penetrating an animal from any angle and shooting at visible parts of the animals anatomy.

 

[WTFJohn]

Not talking about shooting through branches at all. Talking about penetrating an animal from any angle and shooting at visible parts of the animals anatomy.

So you're not shooting through brush (what else is blocking your view of the animal?), or taking unethical shots just to get a blood trail going. But you will send it at any angle at a patch of brown to get the animal down. Got it.

 

[FredH]

So you're not shooting through brush (what else is blocking your view of the animal?), or taking unethical shots just to get a blood trail going. But you will send it at any angle at a patch of brown to get the animal down. Got it.

Many times you can't see the whole animal. But I can tell how it is angled to or away from me and which end is which. WTF is right.

 

[WTFJohn]

Many times you can't see the whole animal. But I can tell how it is angled to or away from me and which end is which. WTF is right.

So what then makes those shots different than the angles you would take other places on big game? You're the one that stated those hunts needed something different, I'm asking why. Shot angles are shot angles and clean shots are clean shots, no matter where you are. What shot angles on those whitetails requires stepping up in caliber (or makes a smaller caliber bullet fail)? Feel free to be as descriptive as you'd like to cut down on any questions.

 

[FredH]

So what then makes those shots different than the angles you would take other places on big game? You're the one that stated those hunts needed something different, I'm asking why. Shot angles are shot angles and clean shots are clean shots, no matter where you are. What shot angles on those whitetails requires stepping up in caliber (or makes a smaller caliber bullet fail)? Feel free to be as descriptive as you'd like to cut down on any questions.

So you can't understand the need for deep penetration and wide wound channels? Smaller calibers can do two things, short wide wound channels or deep narrow wound channels. Also the bullets I shoot in my Whelen are not as apt to throw fragments into meat though there will invariably be some tossed lead fragments. With a good bullet weighing enough I can shoot through a deer and penetrate plenty deep enough on elk from any reasonable angle. With a 250 grain Partition I expect 31/2 to 4 feet of penetration with bone not effecting those numbers much. I can also expect less bloodshot meat. My first Roosevelt elk was killed East of Willapa Washington. A true monster of an elk weighing more than a thousand pounds. I saw his horns moving before I saw any of his body. He was tearing some plant on the ground up and he must have heard me or just raised his head for a look around. As soon as his head was level I had my rifle up, wanting to take a neck shot but there wasn't time as he took a giant leap upward and to my left. I put the front sight just behind his last ribs on his left side angling to smash is far shoulder. Bullet hit right where I wanted. It came out lower than I expected, out his "armpit" nicking the bone of the far upper leg and I guess going into the ferns and dirt. Range 35 yards. Rifle at the time was loaded to 2300 fps with a 250 gr. Speer Spitzer. This was my first Whelen, a rebored and sporterized 03A3 Springfield with the original peep sights and a greatly trimmed stock. He lunged up one more leap and fell in the ferns. Under no circumstances would I have use a 223 to take that shot.

 

[Pharmseller]

My fastest kill on a bull was a 140 gr Partition from a 7mm-08 at 346 yards.




P

 

[The Fish Box]

I swear some of you guys think @Formidilosus gets a commission everytime he converts a “magnum” shooter to a “lesser” cartridge.

 

[WTFJohn]

So you can't understand the need for deep penetration and wide wound channels? Smaller calibers can do two things, short wide wound channels or deep narrow wound channels. Also the bullets I shoot in my Whelen are not as apt to throw fragments into meat though there will invariably be some tossed lead fragments. With a good bullet weighing enough I can shoot through a deer and penetrate plenty deep enough on elk from any reasonable angle. With a 250 grain Partition I expect 31/2 to 4 feet of penetration with bone not effecting those numbers much. I can also expect less bloodshot meat. My first Roosevelt elk was killed East of Willapa Washington. A true monster of an elk weighing more than a thousand pounds. I saw his horns moving before I saw any of his body. He was tearing some plant on the ground up and he must have heard me or just raised his head for a look around. As soon as his head was level I had my rifle up, wanting to take a neck shot but there wasn't time as he took a giant leap upward and to my left. I put the front sight just behind his last ribs on his left side angling to smash is far shoulder. Bullet hit right where I wanted. It came out lower than I expected, out his "armpit" nicking the bone of the far upper leg and I guess going into the ferns and dirt. Range 35 yards. Rifle at the time was loaded to 2300 fps with a 250 gr. Speer Spitzer. This was my first Whelen, a rebored and sporterized 03A3 Springfield with the original peep sights and a greatly trimmed stock. He lunged up one more leap and fell in the ferns. Under no circumstances would I have use a 223 to take that shot.

How deep and how wide is considered a smaller caliber bullet failure vs a larger caliber? I have asked for clarification on why you won't use a smaller caliber for the situations you described in your own posts (assuming you had experience with both calibers in the same kind of shot situations), in a thread about smaller caliber failures. Even now, you deflect from answering directly, but instead bring up a story about shooting in thick brush on a moving animal as a positive for a larger caliber.

Congrats on your that bull, hunting in close country like that is a lot of fun and the shots can be challenging. What about that shot behind the ribs that you feel or have seen would make a smaller caliber bullet fail? Why do you care about the offside shoulder at all other than as a reference point? Your bullet goes through the vitals on the way there if you hit where you aim (as you did).

I killed a bear with a 300 gr .45-70 +P at half that distance, front shoulder entry, recovered in the broken offside rear hip socket. It still ran 50 yards. Is that a bullet failure? According to some, maybe. But it's not for this thread. Just like your larger caliber bullshit.

 

[Jon C]

interesting. I shot a whitetail broadside with 300 wsm 200 eldx and it left no blood.

Me to at 30 yards and not one drop of blood. Deer also was dead before it fell right on the spot.

 

[Leaf Litter]

I swear some of you guys think @Formidilosus gets a commission everytime he converts a “magnum” shooter to a “lesser” cartridge.

No, I think people are just sick of him attacking them for giving their opinions and poking holes in his narrative. Odd things to do as a self-proclaimed Super Moderator, but I don't try to explain other people's autistic rantings.

 

[HandgunHTR]

No, I think people are just sick of him attacking them for giving their opinions and poking holes in his narrative. Odd things to do as a self-proclaimed Super Moderator, but I don't try to explain other people's autistic rantings.

I have yet to see a post where Form "attacks" anybody. I have seen some that came across as condescending, but in almost all of those cases, he was 1) responding to hyperbole, or 2) responding to someone who posted something that was trying to "disprove" data by presenting an anecdote or experience with little to no supporting data. You said it yourself. You are presenting opinions, not facts. If you can't handle it when people refute your opinions with facts, and that makes you feel attacked, then perhaps you need a bit thicker skin, or you should start countering with actual facts.

As to the "self-proclaimed Super Moderator" comment. Again Form didn't proclaim himself a Super Moderator. That title was bestowed on him by either Ryan or Robby, as the owners of this Forum.

Disclaimer: I don't know Form except from reading his stuff on this, and other Forums. I don't own a .223 bolt gun either.

 

[deerhunter628]

I have yet to see a post where Form "attacks" anybody. I have seen some that came across as condescending, but in almost all of those cases, he was 1) responding to hyperbole, or 2) responding to someone who posted something that was trying to "disprove" data by presenting an anecdote or experience with little to no supporting data. You said it yourself. You are presenting opinions, not facts. If you can't handle it when people refute your opinions with facts, and that makes you feel attacked, then perhaps you need a bit thicker skin, or you should start countering with actual facts.

As to the "self-proclaimed Super Moderator" comment. Again Form didn't proclaim himself a Super Moderator. That title was bestowed on him by either Ryan or Robby, as the owners of this Forum.

Disclaimer: I don't know Form except from reading his stuff on this, and other Forums. I don't own a .223 bolt gun either.

What makes Forms post fact and not opinion? All i have seen is Form states it and states that it is fact and many just agree that it is a fact. No different then the members that state the opposite. It appears that if you agree with Form it is fact but if you dont agree with Form it is opinion.

 

[Harvey_NW]

What makes Forms post fact and not opinion? All i have seen is Form states it and states that it is fact and many just agree that it is a fact. No different then the members that state the opposite. It appears that if you agree with Form it is fact but if you dont agree with Form it is opinion.

Pictures, necropsies, other members that were there and can attest and confirm, etc. This redundant caliber debate is extremely annoying. But it doesn't help when 30 cal lovers hop onto a bullet failure thread with nothing to regurgitate but "my 300 woulda!", because they believe anything from a smaller caliber is a bullet failure.

 

[HandgunHTR]

What makes Forms post fact and not opinion? All i have seen is Form states it and states that it is fact and many just agree that it is a fact. No different then the members that state the opposite. It appears that if you agree with Form it is fact but if you dont agree with Form it is opinion.

Because in all of the posts that people get up in arms about (killing stuff with a .223 and scope drops) all he really does is post up pictures and a write up of what he found. Nowhere in those posts does he state an opinion. No "I thinks" or "I feels", just "this is what I observed and here are the pictures to accompany my observations". Those are facts.

As for "if you don't agree with Form, it is opinion", that isn't the case at all. If you do the work, and post up your findings in an objective and unbiased way, then it isn't opinion anymore. If you post up a "Well, one time, at hunting camp...", then it is nothing but an anecdote and can't be taken for fact.

Again, my experiences in some cases don't always align with what Form has found. For example, I have a Tract Toric UHD 2.5-15X44. I have had it mounted on 3 different rifles now. I have performed the drop test with it. Mine has not had a zero shift yet, unlike the one that he tested. Does that mean his findings were wrong? No, it just proves the point that he clearly lays out that he is testing a sample of one. As am I. Mine worked, his didn't. Take it for what it is, not what you want it to be.

 

[deerhunter628]

Pictures, necropsies, other members that were there and can attest and confirm, etc. This redundant caliber debate is extremely annoying. But it doesn't help when 30 cal lovers hop onto a bullet failure thread with nothing to regurgitate but "my 300 woulda!", because they believe anything from a smaller caliber is a bullet failure.

If it is annoying to you you should probably just scroll past and not engage. Probably to the .30 cal fans it is annoying that the small caliber fans are saying that their small calibers can do everything that big calibers can. And im not sure pictures and other people saying they seen something is fact. Again unless you shoot the same animal with a different bullet in the same condition there is no real comparison. Everything i have read is opinion. Even Forms posts.

 

[deerhunter628]

Because in all of the posts that people get up in arms about (killing stuff with a .223 and scope drops) all he really does is post up pictures and a write up of what he found. Nowhere in those posts does he state an opinion. No "I thinks" or "I feels", just "this is what I observed and here are the pictures to accompany my observations". Those are facts.

As for "if you don't agree with Form, it is opinion", that isn't the case at all. If you do the work, and post up your findings in an objective and unbiased way, then it isn't opinion anymore. If you post up a "Well, one time, at hunting camp...", then it is nothing but an anecdote and can't be taken for fact.

Again, my experiences in some cases don't always align with what Form has found. For example, I have a Tract Toric UHD 2.5-15X44. I have had it mounted on 3 different rifles now. I have performed the drop test with it. Mine has not had a zero shift yet, unlike the one that he tested. Does that mean his findings were wrong? No, it just proves the point that he clearly lays out that he is testing a sample of one. As am I. Mine worked, his didn't. Take it for what it is, not what you want it to be.

If you post that you have done it many times then Form and other small caliber fans say that you are lying, but if Form says it it is fact. Do you really think there are not thousands of animals killed every year with larger calibers? Can you, Form, or anybody else PROVE that a smaller cartridge would have killed those animals just as good? No you can not. It is just your opinion that it would. Does not matter how many pictures you have.

 

[Ozarkansas]

Whoah, I’m revisiting this thread and boy has it changed course. The thread has drifted from “has anyone seen any bullet failures” to “what is a bullet failure?” To “Does Rokslide suffer from Groupthink? (Yes)”.

Maybe we need a separate thread discussing what happens when you disagree with Form or choose an option other than one the “RSS Orthodoxy” approves of

 

[Harvey_NW]

If it is annoying to you you should probably just scroll past and not engage. Probably to the .30 cal fans it is annoying that the small caliber fans are saying that their small calibers can do everything that big calibers can. And im not sure pictures and other people saying they seen something is fact. Again unless you shoot the same animal with a different bullet in the same condition there is no real comparison. Everything i have read is opinion. Even Forms posts.

I've been engaged in this thread since the start, because I'm pretty sure it was spun off of a bullet failure thread I started. The title is .223, 6mm, and 6.5mm bullet failures, not how do 30 cal fans feel about smaller caliber kills.