.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[mxgsfmdpx]

Argentina. The land of baiting and lead shot lol. My dad, my brother and I killed 150 ducks in an hour flat. It was insane. When we got done, 4 dudes carried 4 giant sacks of rice back out into the field. Never saw that before. It definitely works, I’ll tell ya haha.

Haha! Just replied to him and saw this. Yep. South America is a treat!

 

[WTFJohn]

Sarcasm, I love it.

I would say follow up shots when recovering from heavier recoil would out of logic take longer to get back on target for that second shot.

In a fit of luck (because it couldn't be anything besides luck...) and 40+ big game animals from Pronghorn, whitetails, muley's to elk, the vast majority being deer and elk, I can count on one hand with a few fingers leftover the number that took more than one shot. Distances range from well under 100 yds to ~400 yds. 35 Whelen AI, .300 Win Mag, 270 Win, 30-06 are the cartridges doing the work. Gotta say it's a dump truck load of luck apparently that has gotten more than a few dump trucks of wild game in the freezer with those mean bigger bullets coming from those mean and outdated bigger cases creating all that recoil and worse shot placement.

I don't think it's luck, you sound like an above average shooter taking good shots within a distance that errors do not get magnified. I still pick up up .300WM, .45-70, and other large caliber rifles to hunt & shoot; all without issue. I do not feel overgunned or undergunned with anything I can legally take game with in this state; provided I abide by the velocity window of each bullet. No one has said you can't kill with those calibers, except you.

I will extend the same offer to you as @TaperPin, if you will do it in good faith. .243-ish caliber, and .30 cal magnum. 30 rd groups, you tell me the ammo. Film from mag loading to checking targets. Spice it up if you like, shoot 3 (10) rd groups from 3 different positions for each rifle. Same goes for pistol & shotgun offers, and shooting if you're in my part of the country.

We are all here to learn (obstensibly). Please contribute something other than an emotional defense of what you've done in the past.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Where is the emotional defense, might've been in a larger dose, but no different sarcasm than was quoted.

I'm not shooting targets, I'm shooting game and that is what the thread is about. One shot is as one shot does.

Of course, not taking the heaviest recoiling rifle to the range for a target shoot. But in the field, one shot has been some thing I have said before is a different thing and have been able to have the results that I'm happy with.

 

[WTFJohn]

Where is the emotional defense, might've been in a larger dose, but no different sarcasm than was quoted.

"Fit of luck (because it couldn't be anything besides luck...)"
"dump truck full of luck"
"those mean bigger bullets coming from those mean and outdated bigger cases creating all that recoil and worse shot placement"

No one has said large calibers don't shoot well, that they can't kill well, or that you can't shoot them well. This was a thread for documenting smaller caliber bullet failures until people felt the need to bring their large caliber experiences in, unprompted.

Again, same offer open to you @35WhelenAI as to @TaperPin. Pick two calibers/ammo of your choice and I will send it to you with the requirement that you film from loading mags to checking targets on 30 rd groups, and post clear individual group pictures. I will send 40 rds total. This is your chance to shut everyone up, at no cost to you other than time. And shooting is fun and practice is good, so win-win-win. We are all here to learn.

This is the end of my thread derail with you. If you would like to take me up on the offer, please PM so this thread can get back on topic.

 

[35WhelenAI]

This is about failures on game and shooting on game not targets. You have nothing to prove on that, I've already agreed with you. However, for one shot on game in the field at the ranges I have hunted, don't need to be concerned with recoil causing an issue with the first shot, just might not get back on target as quick if a second one is needed, which has been rare as shared, and every second shot was all that was needed to finish.

Who derailed? Looking back it's easy to see we both have, with me more recently.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Again, same offer open to you @35WhelenAI as to @TaperPin. Pick two calibers/ammo of your choice and I will send it to you with the requirement that you film from loading mags to checking targets on 30 rd groups, and post clear individual group pictures. I will send 40 rds total. This is your chance to shut everyone up, at no cost to you other than time. And shooting is fun and practice is good, so win-win-win. We are all here to lelearn.

Have you done this yourself and posted it here? Did I miss it?

 

[Hnthrdr]

This buck went 5 yards. 2” SEVR
View attachment 797359

This buck went 70 yards (in about 10 seconds). 180 Berger Hybrid.
View attachment 797360

I can’t say which is “more” lethal. There’s just so many things that cause so many different outcomes. So all I do is just keep killing animals to form an opinion is all.

I’ve also stoned a buck with a behind the shoulder shot with a 180 hybrid, and had one run 70 yards with a lung shot expandable.

So it’s just about perspective and killing enough, and seeing enough killed to build upon it. And one bad outcome or bullet performance can absolutely change or shift that perspective. Despite it technically not being enough data. It’s enough for someone to go “yeah I didn’t like that, I’m not going to try it again”.

This isn’t real… huntful only kills slammer bucks he pulled that second pic off the internet and made it up hahaha

 

[WTFJohn]

Have you done this yourself and posted it here? Did I miss it?

I don't have to post pictures to tell you I don't shoot magnums as well across larger round counts as I do smaller calibers. They are proclaiming they shoot larger calibers as well as smaller calibers, and I would like to see that so much that I will pay for them to do it.

I have shot many of the targets/drills posted across threads here, and my results, frankly, usually are unremarkable against the rest. Feel free to go search my posts, there is a patch on all my packs that says Suck Less. I also regularly shoot animals small & large with single round definitive results. However on the times it has taken more than one shot, the 6.5 has been much faster on followups than the larger calibers. I shot a 30 lb fox 2x this morning at under 40 yards with 5.56 mk262 and it still went 30 yds, maybe I should have taken the .300WM.

I do not proclaim to have the greatest skillset/background/equipment, but I can take what I have and go shoot & learn. I'm also smart enough to learn from others, and if they are capable of what they say fulfilling this should be a sweet, easy, and free way to shut me up.

 

[huntnful]

This isn’t real… huntful only kills slammer bucks he pulled that second pic off the internet and made it up hahaha

Lmao . I killed one more fork horned deer after that one. But it was a nice one! And now I don’t kill them anymore haha.

 

[huntnful]

I don't have to post pictures to tell you I don't shoot magnums as well across larger round counts as I do smaller calibers. They are proclaiming they shoot larger calibers as well as smaller calibers, and I would like to see that so much that I will pay for them to do it.

I have shot many of the targets/drills posted across threads here, and my results, frankly, usually are unremarkable against the rest. Feel free to go search my posts, there is a patch on all my packs that says Suck Less. I also regularly shoot animals small & large with single round definitive results. However on the times it has taken more than one shot, the 6.5 has been much faster on followups than the larger calibers. I shot a 30 lb fox 2x this morning at under 40 yards with 5.56 mk262 and it still went 30 yds, maybe I should have taken the .300WM.

I do not proclaim to have the greatest skillset/background/equipment, but I can take what I have and go shoot & learn. I'm also smart enough to learn from others, and if they are capable of what they say fulfilling this should be a sweet, easy, and free way to shut me up.

I’ve done it and documented it and shared. Prone and stable, I cannot shoot the difference between a 12lb 300 Norma Mag Improved and a 15lb 22 creedmoor.

I shot the Norma mag smaller than anyone I’ve seen post any 30 round group with a .223 on here I think? But I might have missed a couple?

Just talking group shooting though.

I’m sure I’d get my ass beat in positional stuff and follow up shots for sure hahaha

 

[WTFJohn]

I’ve done it and documented it and shared. Prone and stable, I cannot shoot the difference between a 12lb 300 Norma Mag Improved and a 15lb 22 creedmoor.

I shot the Norma mag smaller than anyone I’ve seen post any 30 round group with a .223 on here. But I might have missed a couple?

Just talking group shooting. I’m sure I’d get my ass beat in positional stuff and follow up shots for sure hahaha

I've never argued larger guns can't be shot well, and I have seen & appreciate your threads/posts because you can back up your assertions. Maybe my callouts were misplaced by being in this thread, however I am tired of seeing the same posters create the same strawman arguments across the forum and derail otherwise productive threads with zero evidence to back their points.

I have offered to shoot the same course of fire as them, in person, across pistol/rifle/shotgun. I run cattle on as many acres as you can want to shoot on, in prime elk country; and one of the few things I like near as much as winning is learning. Same offer goes to you. Send a PM if interested, time it up right and we can go smash some ducks too.

 

[huntnful]

I've never argued larger guns can't be shot well, and I have seen & appreciate your threads/posts because you can back up your assertions. Maybe my callouts were misplaced by being in this thread, however I am tired of seeing the same posters create the same strawman arguments across the forum and derail otherwise productive threads with zero evidence to back their points.

I have offered to shoot the same course of fire as them, in person, across pistol/rifle/shotgun. I run cattle on as many acres as you can want to shoot on, in prime elk country; and one of the few things I like near as much as winning is learning. Same offer goes to you. Send a PM if interested, time it up right and we can go smash some ducks too.

Oh okay understand that for sure. And also the frustration as well. Kind of a “put up or shut” at this point haha.

I’d love to shoot some time. CO is a pretty good drive for me. I wish I cared more about waterfowl at the moment, because I’d use that as an excuse haha. But I just unexpectedly lost my duck dog this year, and along with losing her, I lost most of my drive to go kill birds, because it was mostly to see her work.

I do genuinely appreciate the offer!

 

[35WhelenAI]

In my opinion it's not the same people derailing threads, it's the same people contributing to threads with counterpoints or points depending on which thread it is. Not everybody reads every thread so similar topics have similar discussions and similar responses.

Sharing experiences of success with larger calibers and cartridges as well as the reality they aren't as difficult (as the boogeyman it's made out to be) to shoot accurately in the field is very much in line as a concurrent point with the subject of failures of smaller ones, IMO.

 

[TaperPin]

I don't doubt you have plenty of years of hunting and shooting experience, I just wish it was 50 years of experience instead of the first 5, repeated 10 times.

You’re not far off - even I’d say it’s like the first 10 years repeated 5 times. Not much has changed from that first ten years. My best rifle doesn’t shoot any better than my best rifle then, inexperienced shooters today have the same issues they did then. Personal growth in the shooting sports happens in the same stages, and the same limiting factors apply to anyone shooting/ hunting long range.

Today, new shooters, rather than being taught how to shoot a rifle or pistol with recoil, how to train their brains to not react to recoil, they are taught to not try and don’t question why. You and others have enabled a generation to not try or fail on their own with anything with more recoil than yesteryears varmint guns.

Since you’re very keen on 9mm - how do you train new shooters with it? Sitting at any range across the country, it doesn’t take long to see shots hitting the ground many feet under 25 yard targets. Do you simply tell new shooters to avoid 9mm? I doubt it. You probably teach them how to handle the pistol and how to train to avoid flinching.

 

[35WhelenAI]

35 Whelen AI 200 TTSX MV 2940 fps quartering away, Whitetail buck 190 yds. Entry first pic, exit second pic. Eat right up to the bullet holes as the saying goes. Hit right where the crosshairs were aimed. Point being anticipation of recoil didn't pull the shot and send him off and running to die a shitty death.

 

[35WhelenAI]

One and done on each of these as well. Anywhere from dropping in the tracks to 20 or 30 yards of a stumble and down. I'll add up front that 20 or 30 yards of tracking or watching an animal after the shot isn't a hard thing to do if someone has reservations about it. Especially when there's plenty of blood from an exit.

There are many more but a lot of them were before the age of digital cameras, or at least I didn't have one or cell phone cameras.

 

[WTFJohn]

I know I said I wouldn't engage, but damn it.

In my opinion it's not the same people derailing threads, it's the same people contributing to threads with counterpoints or points depending on which thread it is. Not everybody reads every thread so similar topics have similar discussions and similar responses.

Sharing experiences of success with larger calibers and cartridges as well as the reality they aren't as difficult (as the boogeyman it's made out to be) to shoot accurately in the field is very much in line as a concurrent point with the subject of failures of smaller ones, IMO.

You post this, then umpteen pictures NOT of these caliber failures. Again, no one said larger calibers don't kill.

You’re not far off - even I’d say it’s like the first 10 years repeated 5 times. Not much has changed from that first ten years. My best rifle doesn’t shoot any better than my best rifle then, inexperienced shooters today have the same issues they did then. Personal growth in the shooting sports happens in the same stages, and the same limiting factors apply to anyone shooting/ hunting long range.

Today, new shooters, rather than being taught how to shoot a rifle or pistol with recoil, how to train their brains to not react to recoil, they are taught to not try and don’t question why. You and others have enabled a generation to not try or fail on their own with anything with more recoil than yesteryears varmint guns.

Since you’re very keen on 9mm - how do you train new shooters with it? Sitting at any range across the country, it doesn’t take long to see shots hitting the ground many feet under 25 yard targets. Do you simply tell new shooters to avoid 9mm? I doubt it. You probably teach them how to handle the pistol and how to train to avoid flinching.

If you haven't progressed in 50 years with your shooting, that is on you. Me and others have enabled a generation of bad shooters? Holy cow, those are broad strokes you paint with. Your lack of reading comprehension has me reconsidering the offer to shoot together.

35 Whelen AI 200 TTSX MV 2940 fps quartering away, Whitetail buck 190 yds. Entry first pic, exit second pic. Eat right up to the bullet holes as the saying goes. Hit right where the crosshairs were aimed. Point being anticipation of recoil didn't pull the shot and send him off and running to die a shitty death.
View attachment 812026

View attachment 812027

One and done on each of these as well. Anywhere from dropping in the tracks to 20 or 30 yards of a stumble and down. I'll add up front that 20 or 30 yards of tracking or watching an animal after the shot isn't a hard thing to do if someone has reservations about it. Especially when there's plenty of blood from an exit.

There are many more but a lot of them were before the age of digital cameras, or at least I didn't have one or cell phone cameras.

View attachment 812042View attachment 812041View attachment 812040View attachment 812039View attachment 812038View attachment 812037View attachment 812036View attachment 812034View attachment 812033

No one ever said larger calibers don't kill. This was a small caliber bullet failure thread, as titled.

 

[35WhelenAI]

WTF, sent you
a PM Since we live in Colorado might be a good way to work together.

 

[Hnthrdr]

I've never argued larger guns can't be shot well, and I have seen & appreciate your threads/posts because you can back up your assertions. Maybe my callouts were misplaced by being in this thread, however I am tired of seeing the same posters create the same strawman arguments across the forum and derail otherwise productive threads with zero evidence to back their points.

I have offered to shoot the same course of fire as them, in person, across pistol/rifle/shotgun. I run cattle on as many acres as you can want to shoot on, in prime elk country; and one of the few things I like near as much as winning is learning. Same offer goes to you. Send a PM if interested, time it up right and we can go smash some ducks too.

Shoot man I’m about to talk mad crap on small calibers just so I can get in on some of these invites hahaha

 

[Harvey_NW]

Pick two calibers/ammo of your choice and I will send it to you with the requirement that you film from loading mags to checking targets on 30 rd groups, and post clear individual group pictures. I will send 40 rds total.

I mostly agree with you so I don't mean this in a smart-ass way, but if you'd actually like to see this done for the sake of real data contribution, I'll do it.