What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[sclb745]

.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET. “Bullets matter more than headstamps.” “Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”. I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened. The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223...

rokslide.com

6mm /.243 hunting success on Big Game

With the success of .223 and 6.5 threads on big game, thought I’d throw this one into the mix. Show and detail your results harvesting big game (deer, bear, elk, moose, African game) using 6mm/.243 cartridges. Please detail bullet, MV, impact velocity, and whether hand load or factory ammo.

rokslide.com

6.5 Creedmoor/260 for Deer, Elk, and whatever else.....

Seeing that the 223 thread is such a success, I thought maybe I would start one for the Creedmoor/260. Seems like people are asking a lot about using them and various bullets, especially for elk. I've used mine for the last few years almost exclusively. I have some pics of bullet damage, albeit...

rokslide.com

Ahh yea, should have done that as well. It was the guy above that asked for the failure thread.

 

[Shooterpunk]

Thank you!!

 

[Anschutz]

The only reason I'm an NRA member is to shoot NRA High Power, and that's gone downhill since their feud with the CMP and moving their National Matches from Camp Perry to Atterbury.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

 

[hunterjmj]

I did find the article written in AH by Towsley "The Importance of Long Range Values". It was the October issue and it starts on page 48. He recommends the minimum of 6.5 caliber and 130gr bullet for longer range hunting of any big game if you are going to engage, even though he clearly does not condone it. He goes into his reasoning and his experiments shooting at LR with some experts. Yeah, he is calling it out and he says he has been for a long time but too many are out to prove something that isn't in sportsmans best interests. I'm not saying he is right or wrong, but he does have a large hunting audience and I'm sure plenty of anti-hunter readers as well.

As for me, I will stick to my 270 or 308 for Pa deer and bear hunting and 7prc and 300wsm for anything farther to my self-limited range of 450 yards if I absolutely had to. You can almost always get closer than that if you try. I have nothing to "prove" by extending that range or shoot a 223 for big game....but to each their own.

Always wondered why you post on any of the smaller caliber threads? You obviously don't/wont hunt with them and you don't really contribute anything constructive to the discussion. I guess you just like people to know how manly you are cause you shoot a 500 nitro express. Why don't you start a constructive thread on 270 bullet choices for pa deer at ranges less than 450 yards? That'll be right in your wheelhouse and you may learn a thing or 2.

 

[Choupique]

you shoot a 500 nitro express

Well, idk about yall but I'm jealous.

 

[hunterjmj]

Well, idk about yall but I'm jealous.

He once stated we'd all be running to him begging to shoot his 500 or whatever nitro express when we came across a big animal.

 

[Tarkio]

There's a TON of posts on cartridge selection and bullet threads that go "have you read" the following:
1) the .223 thread
2) the 6mm thread
3) the 6.5mm thread

I've read those, and see a lot of animals and wound channels. I likely missed the nexus or catalyst for what has created this, but Rokslide is very much a place where you're going to get a posting response such as:
"you don't need a 7 PRC, get 7mm-08"
"Magnums are uneccesary to effectively kill game < 700 yards"
etc etc.
@Ryan Avery you shifted from margin of error, big 30s, and came around to super fast 6mm like 6 UM in like 2 years. What was the main thing that changed your mind?

I've read one comment along the lines of "being tired of the constant recommendations for smallest cartridge possible" or similar. I imagine that sentiment is not singular.

My Question: is the justifcation or cause of this people successfully killing animals with smaller catridges and caliber bullets using match-type bullets creating large wound channels? I've heard hit rates/statistics cited, but unsure where to read about this. For those "converts" who have seen the smaller cartridge light - can you please expain to me what/why? If repeated elsewhere in hundreds of pages of the evidence based (ie kills) threads, I still thought it might be useful to tuck the "why" topic into a dedicated thread.

Again I'm not saying it is wrong - I'm just noticing a very prevelant trend and trying to fully understand it. And I own a 6.5CM which was purchased due to cheaper ammo, less recoil, availability, etc so I have some understanding and experience with the benefits cited. I also own a suppresssed 7 PRC, which I read is basically too much recoil/gun for western hunting? I think Form said somewhere a full 6.5 PRC around 16 ft-lb of recoil was the practical limit for most adults, and they always do better < 10 ft-lbs?

I've heard the Shoot2Hunt podcasts and read the threads, and haven't walked away with a clear "why."

Brief me. Please.

Might be that people realize most folks do a far better job shooting a lighter round with less blast and recoil.

Generally speaking, far better to make a good hit with a slightly smaller bullet with a bit less energy than either a miss or a bad shot.


Just me WAGing

 

[Choupique]

begging to shoot his 500 or whatever nitro express

Dude must be rich af if he's hunting in north America with anything that says nitro express on the barrels.

 

[hunterjmj]

Very possible. I'd love to own one for a Cape buffalo hunt but that won't happen. I'd probably go 416 Remington if I ever get the opportunity.

 

[hunterjmj]

Dude must be rich af if he's hunting in north America with anything that says nitro express on the barrels.

I had to look it up. He has a 470 Nitro and a 505 Gibbs. I'd love to have either.

 

[Billogna]

Anyone who spends THAT much time carrying gun writers and La Pierre's testicles for them can EASILY handle the recoil for a 500 Nitro!

 

[nm.otter]

as I'm trying to lengthen my effective range, I want something that can grow with me. I'm out to 430 in ideal circumstances, but I'd like to get to 550 eventually. That's why I've stuck with the 30-06 or considered 280ai or 6.5prc as the "lowest" I could go.

6.5 CM factory loads in the 140-143gr range stay above 1,800 FPS to 650+ yards. 147s are good to 700+ yards.

Factory 6mm GT is good to 700+ with (at a minimum) 30% less recoil -- my next rifle.

 

[nagibson1]

6.5 CM factory loads in the 140-143gr range stay above 1,800 FPS to 650+ yards. 147s are good to 700+ yards.

Factory 6mm GT is good to 700+ with (at a minimum) 30% less recoil -- my next rifle.

Yes. facts. I think the additional draw for me for the 223 is the cost of ammo and reloading. I can't see myself using it as my elk gun. But I'll start on whitetail does and work my way up. I know I fit the "would shoot better with less recoil and muzzle blast" profile. I might also fit the profile of "would benefit from a little harder hitting cartridge since he is not a sniper and his tracking skills are only decent."
Also, since I reload, i can load these cartridges down to whatever is comfortable. That's what I do for my kids. Seems to work good. I have a .243 load that can't be more than 5 or 6 ft lbs of recoil. But it's not an efficient way to shoot compared to the 223.

 

[nm.otter]

You read it here first: 6.5 CM is actually a modern-day boomer.

 

[huntnful]

I've gunned down a decent bit, and I've been enjoying the testing of the smaller cartridges and bullets. The right bullet for a given caliber just kills. You may not get the most dramatic effect on impact, or you might be surprised by a DRT. But at the end of the day, a 3" hole through the lungs is devastating.

 

[wapitispokes]

I think it's largely due to rangefinders (and to a lesser extent scopes that dial correctly-ish).

Before precise range measurement, the limiting factor on most guys' range was guessing too close or too far and missing high or low. So the magnums and super magnums (weatherby philosophy) running light-ish for caliber bullets like 165 .30 cal, 140 7mm, etc were the way to minimize that error by creating the flattest possible trajectory.

As muzzle velocity approaches speed of light, very tough bullet construction is needed to help stuff hold together, especially on very close shots. Especially especially since we are talking about light for caliber bullets. Very tough, small diameter, light for caliber bullets will produce wound channels that are not spectacular, especially at longer ranges as velocity decays.

Now the laser range finder enters the scene. If we can say, that target is at 460 yd and compensate fairly precisely for that distance, we don't need the flattest shooting trajectory possible anymore.

We can now do two things that we couldn't before. We can run high bc heavy for caliber bullets since muzzle velocity is no longer the primary way to extend effective range. Because we are no longer chasing speed of light muzzle velocity, we can start using softer bullets again. These heavy for caliber, high BC, soft "match" bullets deliver devastating terminal performance at moderate velocity, even in smaller diameter projectiles since they upset so violently. They retain that velocity very well at distance even if they are not launched at blistering speeds due to their aerodynamic efficiency.

Fact is, there was to some extent valid reasoning for big cartridges pushing tough bullets very fast. The problem is the extent to which people don't think about the "why" for conventional wisdom and whether it still applies.

I have been largely away from my rifles for close to 15 years (bowhunting). I have rifle hunts coming up and have put my to back in the water. I feel like Rip VanWinkle .... It's amazing how things have changed, not just with rifles and related equipment but also the status of the game.

Okay, short side rant and "hat's off to Robby Denning". I'm thinking of Robby Denning's recent podcast with Brandon Diamond where he finally got Brandon to admit that there is in FACT a decline in the quantity of large mule deer bucks and it is materially due to "1,000 yard rifles and hunting in the late season at lower elevations". Very proud of Robby not backing off on his questions during that podcast. That is an unfortunate side effect of these changes. Since Brandon Diamond and CO DOW know what a major contributing problem is they CAN fix it; they just dont WANT TO. Forgive

I came to the exact same conclusion as written above. Essentially, economical and accurate laser range finders changed everything...which in turn led to wide availability of reasonably good scopes with dialable turrets. Then people learned (mostly) that they need to practice so they don't "suck as much at shooting"....But then there is wind drift as the wild card.

Wind drift wasn't the wild card for most shooters 15-20 years ago.

So, the change in environment that has enabled longer range shooting and lower recoiling cartridges also encourages high BC bullets (read, heavier and longer).

A "high BC" .284 or .308 bullet is gong to way "a lot" and "recoil yet more" whereas a "high BC" 6.5 or smaller caliber bullet is still fairly light and can be enjoyed in a package with "moderate" recoil.

Further, many (most?) of the rifles pre- LRF (Laser Range finder) are sub-optimal for long high BC bullets....so the enthusiasts / reloaders and early adopters bought new rifles designed around those higher BC bullets; probably going down in caliber as they did so.

 

[JGRaider]

I find it hard to believe that the decline in quality mule deer bucks is due to LR hunting. IMO it's due to elk population expansion/habitat loss, lack of predator control, and extended drought conditions.

 

[littlebigtine]

I find it hard to believe that the decline in quality mule deer bucks is due to LR hunting. IMO it's due to elk population expansion/habitat loss, lack of predator control, and extended drought conditions.

LR hunting is lack of predator control? Haha

Id say that social media has changed the ethos around hunting. Shaming people from shooting smaller deer and pushing more people who would otherwise be satisfied with a small buck to try harder. Stay longer. Shoot farther. And ultimately harvest an older age class.
Technology and information has completely changed hunting. No secrets anymore.

These things probably have had a bigger effect on mature deer then LRH but I think its naive to believe that LRH has had no effect.

But no doubt, these are the real drivers in order:

Habitat(competition, degradation, limitation)
Weather(drought, hard winter)
Harvest(multiple factors play in, not just LRH)

 

[JGRaider]

LR hunting is lack of predator control? Haha

Show me where I said anything remotely close to that? LRH has had little to nothing to do with lack of quality mule deer bucks is what I said, and I'll stick to that. It's due to the 3 things I listed, IMO.

 

[littlebigtine]

Show me where I said anything remotely close to that? LRH has had little to nothing to do with lack of quality mule deer bucks is what I said, and I'll stick to that. It's due to the 3 things I listed, IMO.

Your misunderstanding my joke. I was pointing out that not regulating the efficacy of human harvest is, sort of, lack of predator control.
I am mostly agreeing with you but asserting that LRH does play a role in the big picture just a small piece of the pie.