Smaller Bore Match Bullets for Brown Bear or Moose (and other big critters)

[Luke S]

Form I don't disagree but I think the assumption that "stopping" a charge equals killing the animal instantly is an absolute worst case scenario. Lots of bears get hit and break off a charge. So hitting the bear enough to hurt it, with any rifle is useful. That would explain why lots of people have used 9mm and 10mm to stop bears. Sometimes there are CNS hits, often the bear gets hurt enough it quits. As far as "breaking them down" goes I'm not a fan. I've seen multiple bears run with 3 legs and lining up to break both shoulders at once is probably harder than a CNS hit. My only interest in bones is whether they stop a bullet that would have hit the vitals if it had continued on. Once we get that must penetration more is probably not worth the trade off. Hence my interest in a .308. If at 308/6.4 CM can reliably kill elk, including through the shoulders, and the wound channels are impressive why go bigger?

I guess I could look at a .223 eventually but I have a .308 that will probably be suppressed so it works fine. But regardless, I was never a serious AR15 shooter so I might do better with a bolt action that I'm used too. I guess a better question would be. Under what circumstances would a .308/6.5 with match bullets give up something to a bigger caliber with premiums? If those 308 match bullets reliably break shoulder bones I don't really know what else we need. Maybe after I try that I'll take the next step an try an AR.

I did think about setting up an AR15 as a backup rifle for ME. Our hunts with kids usually involve me carrying a rifle, getting the kid into position and handing them the rifle. That rifle is going to be either a suppressed 6.5 Grendel or my .308 (suppressed to if we get our second can). So I have the longer and heavier rifle in my hands. A compact AR that straps to my pack would be handy in case I need to help out.

 

[BLJ]

In for more info on this. Always been a curiosity to me.

 

[TaperPin]

I’d trust the judgement of someone who’s full time career revolves around killing bears. Simply look to the bear guides, and fish and wildlife guys who take care of wounded or misbehaving bears. I find it laughable that some think the 223 is the ideal choice against bears - it will obviously kill one under good conditions, so will a 17 Rem. The entire 223 thread was based on the idea a big fast magnum was overkill - ask a professional if they feel they are over killing.

I’ve only personally talked bear rifles with two guys who kill them as part of their job. One shoots them from his pickup in open country and uses a 30-06. The other gets the call to sort out coastal bears under less than ideal conditions and used a 375 H&H for many years and upgraded to a 416 Rem mag.

A guy I worked with on a fire crew drew the long straw and got to help remove a bear attack victim from Yellowstone - years later I saw a photo in the accident report - the image of the remains has always been sobering. Usually we see pictures of the scratched up guy who survived and has a lot of stitches. When you’re killed for dinner, they eat the organs and rip open the rib cage.

Google “bear attack victim body” and there are a few good pics of partially eaten bodies.

I also don’t buy the idea that a big caliber can’t be shot accurately or quickly. My iron sighted 375 H&H with Brown Precision Pounder stock was under 7 lbs so recoil was brisk, but quickly shooting 12 gauge shotgun hulls offhand at 10-20 yards was quite doable by normal guys.

Shoot what makes sense to you - the Darwin Award is alive and well.

 

[Formidilosus]

In terms of stopping all functions sure, but wouldn’t shattering the pelvis or breaking both shoulders effectively stop a bear from covering ground? I’ve never seen an animal stay mobile after taking out 2 or more limbs

No. Plenty of bears (and everything else) continue locomotion with bullets through multiple limbs.

 

[MattB]

Not sure why guys seem to gloss over the distinction between killing and stopping. Grizzly and brown bears tend to die more slowly than most other critters with shots to the heart/lungs and guides generally want them anchored so they don’t have to wade into an alder patch for recovery. Guides will often start shooting themselves if the hunter’s first shot doesn’t immediately drop the bear. They aren’t doing that to make sure the bear dies, they are doing that with the goal of dropping the bear right then and there.

 

[Formidilosus]

You definitely can kill a grizzly with a 223 given a good shot into the vitals. Having to defend yourself from a bear is a whole different ball game. Those who don't have experience hunting big bears are the ones who think a small bore gun is a good idea. Those of us who do have experience know at some point the small gun guys are going to find out the hard way about it's limitations. I have read a lot of that cursed 223 thread and know it can work but it's an echo chamber in there and tell you it's a bad idea but some won't listen.

How? Have you killed a single bear with a 223 and any bullet being discussed? Have you killed a single large animal with a 223 and any of the bullets being discussed.
The 223 thread isn’t an echo chamber- it’s the exact opposite. Not one person has been able to produce actual animals or evidence that it doesn’t work, nor any logical objective reasoning for why it won’t.
The echo chamber is where a bunch of people who have never tried something continue to talk about how it’s a “bad idea”, in spite of very large set empirical data to the contrary. “A big bore handgun is a good bear stopper” but a rifle cartridge that creates wounds 10-30 times as large from the most shootable platform ever made is “asking for trouble”.

With modern bullets you sure can get much better performance than we used to get. For example a 30-06 or 300 magnum with one of the heavy 'match" style bullets is going to open up a huge hole and do a lot of damage. Probably could even go a bit smaller than a 30 cal too and get that kind of perfomance.

Ok? And it still can’t be shot anywhere near at the speed and accuracy of a 5.56 gas gun.

 

[Formidilosus]

I’d trust the judgement of someone who’s full time career revolves around killing bears. Simply look to the bear guides, and fish and wildlife guys who take care of wounded or misbehaving bears. I find it laughable that some think the 223 is the ideal choice against bears - it will obviously kill one under good conditions, so will a 17 Rem. The entire 223 thread was based on the idea a big fast magnum was overkill - ask a professional if they feel they are over killing.

I’ve only personally talked bear rifles with two guys who kill them as part of their job. One shoots them from his pickup in open country and uses a 30-06. The other gets the call to sort out coastal bears under less than ideal conditions and used a 375 H&H for many years and upgraded to a 416 Rem mag.

A guy I worked with on a fire crew drew the long straw and got to help remove a bear attack victim from Yellowstone - years later I saw a photo in the accident report - the image of the remains has always been sobering. Usually we see pictures of the scratched up guy who survived and has a lot of stitches. When you’re killed for dinner, they eat the organs and rip open the rib cage.

Google “bear attack victim body” and there are a few good pics of partially eaten bodies.

I also don’t buy the idea that a big caliber can’t be shot accurately or quickly. My iron sighted 375 H&H with Brown Precision Pounder stock was under 7 lbs so recoil was brisk, but quickly shooting 12 gauge shotgun hulls offhand at 10-20 yards was quite doable by normal guys.

This is an appeal to authority fallacy. Not a single one of those people have ever tried 223 with good bullets in an AR. That they are around bears and may shoot them, in no way means that they know anything about terminal ballistics- and quite the opposite, as they don’t experiment.

Shoot what makes sense to you - the Darwin Award is alive and well.View attachment 663843

A single good 223 projectile would spilt that skull like a cantaloupe.

 

[Formidilosus]

Form I don't disagree but I think the assumption that "stopping" a charge equals killing the animal instantly is an absolute worst case scenario. Lots of bears get hit and break off a charge. So hitting the bear enough to hurt it, with any rifle is useful. That would explain why lots of people have used 9mm and 10mm to stop bears. Sometimes there are CNS hits, often the bear gets hurt enough it quits. As far as "breaking them down" goes I'm not a fan. I've seen multiple bears run with 3 legs and lining up to break both shoulders at once is probably harder than a CNS hit

Well yes- that’s the point I was making. If stopping a charge right now is the goal- the only way to do that is to disrupt the CNS with any caliber/cartridge. Otherwise a body shot is a body shot basically regardless of cartridge.

. My only interest in bones is whether they stop a bullet that would have hit the vitals if it had continued on. Once we get that must penetration more is probably not worth the trade off. Hence my interest in a .308. If at 308/6.4 CM can reliably kill elk, including through the shoulders, and the wound channels are impressive why go bigger?

Correct. There is nothing in a bear that is stopping a good projectile fired from a rifle.

I guess I could look at a .223 eventually but I have a .308 that will probably be suppressed so it works fine. But regardless, I was never a serious AR15 shooter so I might do better with a bolt action that I'm used too.

With 20-30 min of correct practice with an AR you would annihilate your own performance with a bolt action.

I guess a better question would be. Under what circumstances would a .308/6.5 with match bullets give up something to a bigger caliber with premiums?

Absolutely none. Remove history, tradition, and old wives tales and a semi auto AR10/SR25 platform is absolutely the better choice for incapacitating a bear in a charge than any bolt action regardless of caliber.

If those 308 match bullets reliably break shoulder bones I don't really know what else we need. Maybe after I try that I'll take the next step an try an AR.

I did think about setting up an AR15 as a backup rifle for ME. Our hunts with kids usually involve me carrying a rifle, getting the kid into position and handing them the rifle. That rifle is going to be either a suppressed 6.5 Grendel or my .308 (suppressed to if we get our second can). So I have the longer and heavier rifle in my hands. A compact AR that straps to my pack would be handy in case I need to help out.

I get the hesitation with 223/5.56mm. It is unconventional. However, it is only that way due to historical precedent and tradition.

If you could line up 1,000 bear charges with an AR15 223 and good bullets, 1,000 charges with a AR10 in 308, and 1,000 charges with a bolt action 375 H&H or bigger- no one would ever choose to use the bolt action afterwards.
A properly setup AR15 with red dot (Aimpoint), flashlight and suppressor with a modicum of shooting skill is a surgical death machine. A properly assembled AR10 in 308 setup the same is also very good, clearly the second best choice, but is larger, more bulky, recoils more, and is a little less reliable. A bolt action 375 H&H in comparison for fast moving, stressful shooting is a slow, awkward thing.

Very few people like classic rifles as much as I do. However for the objective task being talked about, they are not comparable to a properly setup AR.

 

[TaperPin]

This is an appeal to authority fallacy. Not a single one of those people have ever tried 223 with good bullets in an AR. That they are around bears and may shoot them, in no way means that they know anything about terminal ballistics- and quite the opposite, as they don’t experiment.






A single good 223 projectile would spilt that skull like a cantaloupe.

I think the fallacy is saying your evidence is valid, but the evidence seen by every bear killed by someone with a bigger rifle is somehow not. Every dead bear is an experiment. Every dead bear killed by every caliber imaginable has been seen in Alaska - every one is evidence of what works and what doesn’t. Discounting something that doesn’t agree with you, just because it doesn’t agree with you is silly.

The 223 thread is very much an echo chamber - you guys are so wrapped up in your own world that nobody is interested in listening to anything that doesn’t fall in line with with the crowd. It’s impressive what you’ve been able to show with the 223, but the constant belittling of larger calibers only gets you so far.

A 40 gr .22 lr bullet has killed many bears, but it doesn’t make it a good choice.

Based on the accuracy of the people who have actually shot charging bears, the idea that all you need is one accurate shot, is more than a little optimistic - people don’t function well under stress, they just don’t.

 

[Ozarkansas]

that is very skilled with both bolt action 375 and AR’s, it’s about 12-16 rounds of 223 from an AR in the time it takes to shoot 2 rounds of 375 from a bolt action. 1 sec for first shot, then between 2 and 3 seconds to reload and place second shot with bolt action 375 for a total of 3 to 4 seconds;

Respectfully, I doubt it takes anyone in this forum 3 seconds to work a bolt and place another shot with pie plate accuracy at bear-charge distance. I imagine the average time between shots would be less than 2 seconds, and skilled shooters would be around 1 second.

No. Plenty of bears (and everything else) continue locomotion with bullets through multiple limbs.

I’m not an expert on stopping bear charges, but I don’t think any animal can do anything other than drag its butt after getting its pelvis (or both femurs) shattered, and if you break both humeruses (humeri?) it’s going to plow its head into the ground. So yeah, they’ll continue locomotion, but I’d still argue that those are “charge stopping” injuries

Yes, a CNS shot is preferable, but I can see the appeal of having a gun that will shatter every bone it hits for 3+ feet of penetration in the event you miss the head.

 

[RWT]

I am struggling with this topic as I have seen the 223 with match bullets work exceptionally well on whitetail. Numerous DRT stops or a one jump flop traveling less than 20 yards. However, I have seen the same bullet or a NBT fail with hogs over 200lbs. Same shot location. Just behind the shoulder through ribs and chest cavity with intent to have bullet strike off side shoulder joint. I have had numerous hogs, boars and sows. Run 100+ yrds after this shot. The animal died during that 100yrd run. But I wonder would I want to have to wrestle with it for the same amount of time it took to run the 100 yrds before it died. Could the hide and depth of the fat play a major role in how quickly the animal is incapacitated ? These are out of the same rifle in fact same box of ammo. Certainly something worth discussing as long as I have woodford reserve to counsel me.

 

[Luke S]

Thanks for the detailed response Form. Just to clarify, I think you are assuming I was referring to an AR10. My favorite hunting rifle is a Rugar Scout .308 with a properly mounted Trijicon scope (not a silly scout scope). Yes I followed your scope mount protocol. Working well after some bumps this past year. For whatever reason I shoot it better then any other rifle I own and more consistently. Maybe the stock (the plastic version with some bedding not the slippery laminate). It will have a Polonium 30 suppressor on it assuming the ATF approves it by hunting season. So for a charge stopper it would give up some to an AR but I like using it for hunting. And with a shorter bolt throw and 5 round mag it beats my .375 with 3 rounds, a longer bolt throw and more recoil. But I like the idea of an M4 style setup as a more of a "fighting rifle" for backup when kids shoot bears. As it happens, my petite little wife shoots an AR well, my .308 is awkard for her. So a family AR might be in our future.

As far as appeals to authority go... I've shot two grizzlies, plus black bears and and I'm not convinced my .375 was "better" it was just what I thought I should use at the time so my "authority" is less then a bear guides but more then many people's. I do have multiple friends and an uncle who guide. One thing I noticed is guides get to observe what paying clients want to bring. So if everyone on the internet says a .338 is the minimum for brown bear, guess what the client brings? They are already paying $15,000 or more for a guided hunt, why not buy a new rifle too? I asked my uncle and I think he'd only seen one moose shot with a .308 and nothing smaller. I don't think he'd seen a grizzly shot with anything smaller then a .300 Mag. Meanwhile Alaskan Natives kill tons of moose with 30-30s and .223 and other uncles in that area kill grizzlies with old 30-06 rifles and CoreLocks (probably closer to a hot loaded .308 in performance). One shot a bear at about 200 yards with a 7mm mag with no problem.

I try to have an open mind. There might be a downside to either a .223 or a .308 with match bullets on bear. Maybe there are conditions under which it would not be idea. If so I'd love to know. If I don't hear of a specific and quantifiable problem with match bullets in a .308 I'll probably carefully try it on big bear hunting. If I get good reasults my .375 might be on sale in a year or two.

Most grizzly/brown bear hunters are looking at a broadside shot from medium range. Do that right and the difference between a .308 and .375 is probably academic, the bear will die soon either way. Would a .223 work? Yes, its been done. My only hesitation is that I believe the .223/TMK combo averages 18 inches of penetration. Looking at the really big bears I wonder if a .223 would go through both lungs or if it might stop partway through the far side lung. IF that were the case, yeah I'd go bigger. My brother had a lung collapse and was very much alive on one lung until we got him to the hospital. If that .223 can fully penetrate the lungs then I say go for it.

Now for bear defense, the weak link is probably the shooter rather than the rifle, i.e. the shooter misses the vitals. How many shots can you put on a bear with a .223 AR vs a bigger rifle? What is the statistical probability that one of those .223 shots will be lethal vs. fewer shots from a bigger rifle?

Now about breaking a pelvis... I think I mentioned I hit a bear in the butt/spine with a .375. That was a little black bear slumbling off after another hunter made a gut shot. Bear dropped but the bullet stopped and I found it. So I'm not convinced a bigger gun would help much there either. Either way I think the probabilty that a lighter/faster shooting gun saves your bacon is much higher than the probability you need to smash through a bear's pelvis.

 

[Johnboy041586]

This is an appeal to authority fallacy. Not a single one of those people have ever tried 223 with good bullets in an AR. That they are around bears and may shoot them, in no way means that they know anything about terminal ballistics- and quite the opposite, as they don’t experiment.






A single good 223 projectile would spilt that skull like a cantaloupe.

Or everyone that tried with a .223 got mauled lol.
in all seriousness though, im lean toward form with this one. If a pistol will stop a bear close range I can't logically see how a smaller rifle would not do the same. But I still wouldn't feel comfortable looking for a brown bear with the intention of killing it with a .223.

 

[thinhorn_AK]

Wish I had something to add but the bears I shot were with a 375HH. Other than that, just black bears when I was growing up with a bow and a 270.

 

[Ozarkansas]

To clarify, I didn’t bring up breaking pelvises for any reason other than as an example of a non-CNS incapacitating injury. I don’t want yall to think I’m some kind of weirdo taking Texas heart shots at every opportunity.

I’m also not saying the typical bear guide logic of large calibers is the best, I’m just saying it has at least one advantahe when taking head-on shots over a .223 that only penetrate half as far

 

[Luke S]

A few pics for fun...

First two bears in a night (back when I had a Leopold). That is our .308.
The bigger bear was a 6 footer and pretty round for a spring bear. A .308 Nosler Partition did okay but I think it was too tough.



A captive female brown bear. Males have wider shoulders. My wife enjoyed asking "So where would you shoot that one?" Just loud enough to freak the tourists out.



We couldn't seal the deal on this guy.

 

[gbflyer]

I wonder how much the hairy coat of a good brownie plays in bullet expansion. Not much like a deer or elk hide.

 

[TML75]

Respectfully, I doubt it takes anyone in this forum 3 seconds to work a bolt and place another shot with pie plate accuracy at bear-charge distance. I imagine the average time between shots would be less than 2 seconds, and skilled shooters would be around 1 second.

I can only speak for the northeastern deer hunters that I’ve been around; very, very few of them practice working their bolt quickly for a follow up shot. It would be more like 5 seconds between shots. Maybe the guys who hunt bears or spend time in bear country practice that skill more…

 

[Luke S]

Here is a big guy on a bait camera. Lots of body mass.

My smaller grizzly.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Respectfully, I doubt it takes anyone in this forum 3 seconds to work a bolt and place another shot with pie plate accuracy at bear-charge distance. I imagine the average time between shots would be less than 2 seconds, and skilled shooters would be around 1 second.

Lol. You should buy a shot timer