Wyo Task Force - Nonres Comments!

[jmez]

NR, owns a huge ranch in WY. He'll have no interest in this.

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[WyoHnt300]

One clarification on 90/10 not being discussed for D/E/P. Is this to say that based on the discussions from the last meeting and information WY G&F shared regarding budget and resident odds projections, the task force has decided there really isn't any feasible 90/10 scenario for D/E/P? So best to focus on other avenues of improving opportunity?

In short, yes, that doesn't necessarily mean that there are not individuals and groups that will continue to push for this change but currently the loss to the G&F department would be roughly 20% of their annual budget. That will keep this topic on thin ice until those supporting 90/10 for D/E/A can offer a reasonable means of making up that shortfall.

 

[BuzzH]

In short, yes, that doesn't necessarily mean that there are not individuals and groups that will continue to push for this change but currently the loss to the G&F department would be roughly 20% of their annual budget. That will keep this topic on thin ice until those supporting 90/10 for D/E/A can offer a reasonable means of making up that shortfall.

I think somebody needs to sharpen their pencil and pull out a calculator.

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/About%20Us/Commission/WGFD-Revenue-Fact-Sheet_FINAL.pdf

What you stated, is that out of a $90,000,000 budget if we go 90-10 the Department will lose $18,000,000 in license fees (20% of their annual budget).

That's just not factually true, at all.

Total NR license revenue is $23,017,241 for deer, pronghorn, and elk.

Going 90-10 would by "theory" but not reality, cut that revenue in half...$11,508,620.50 absolutely worse case scenerio with Residents taking every single available tag available to them. I didn't get straight A's in college algebra...but that isn't near 20% of a $90,000,000 budget.

Of course we also haven't added in the fact that Residents would be paying for those tags, they aren't free for us either.

Let's not also forget that there is regulation that NR's must receive 7,250 full priced elk tags in the intial draw...take those out of the lost revenue.

There would also be no loss in revenue from all the Region wide NR deer tags, 90-10 would NOT impact those tag numbers.

According to the presentation at the last task force meeting, how many NR pronghorn and deer tags are rolling into the initial NR draw? None of those tags would be lost under 90-10.

We could also exclude every type 6/7 tag from 90-10 split, even less lost revenue.

Even under the worst case scenario, there is no way in hell that the Department is losing anywhere close to 20% of their annual budget going 90-10.

That's, at best a total misrepresentation of the facts and total dogshit math. Some would be so bold as to call it a flat out lie.

Nobody is denying that there are revenue considerations, but lets keep the facts straight.

 

[bayoublaster7527]

Oh no is someone challenging Buzz’s all knowing monopoly of information regarding WY big game hunting? What a shift in the discussion as Buzz and some other WY residents on here have consistently stated that are no real revenue considerations with going to 90/10 for D/E/A because it would have marginal to no impact on WYGF revenue. WY doesn’t need non resident hunting at all, they could go to 100/0 for everything and would be totally fine. Sarcasm. I wish you best of luck in your crusade to limit NR opportunity, I’m sure transferable landowner tags and outfitter set asides are coming. Keep sticking it to those DIY NR hunters!

 

[Wags]

I’m sure transferable landowner tags and outfitter set asides are coming. Keep sticking it to those DIY NR hunters!

This would truly be the death of 1000 cuts for Wyoming. But, when you open Pandora's box..... this is where the WY resident's say it'll never happen..... I'm sure there were CO residents who felt the same way before it happened there too.

I have no skin in the fight for the 90/10 on Big 5. I've never sought a tag and never will. However I do have a vested interest if it went to D/E/A. While I'm not a resident, yet, I do own hundreds of acres in WY, pay taxes & am there spending money 3-5 times a year. I will be a resident in the years to come and am against the 90/10 for D/E/A.

 

[307]

of information regarding WY big game hunting? What a shift in the discussion as Buzz and some other WY residents on here have consistently stated that are no real revenue considerations with going to 90/10 for D/E/A because it would have marginal to no impact on WYGF revenue. WY doesn’t need non resident hunting at all, they could go to 100/0 for everything and would be totally fine. Sarcasm. I wish you best of luck in your crusade to limit NR opportunity, I’m sure transferable landowner tags and outfitter set asides are coming. Keep sticking it to those DIY NR hunters!

Making up #'s which are hyperbolic at a minimum isn't actually a challenge. It's just B.S.

Good tantrum though.

 

[JM77]

Making up #'s which are hyperbolic at a minimum isn't actually a challenge. It's just B.S.

Good tantrum though.

Well then great, we have a task force member on this forum BSing everyone.

The truth is 90/10 for D/E/A appears to be a nonstarter with the task force. That's fine, as the big 5 needs the proposed change that's being recommended. It makes no sense to misrepresent the facts and there's much of that going on. Unfortunately other ideas are being considered, in some cases without much thought of consequence, that could drastically change the way we hunt in Wyoming. In most cases, these changes benefit one small group of hunters.

Hopefully, more public comment is on the way and much more needed discussion presents the total story. One thing for sure IMO, the average sportsman has little representation on this task force, as special interest abounds.

 

[wind gypsy]

I think somebody needs to sharpen their pencil and pull out a calculator.

https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/About%20Us/Commission/WGFD-Revenue-Fact-Sheet_FINAL.pdf

What you stated, is that out of a $90,000,000 budget if we go 90-10 the Department will lose $18,000,000 in license fees (20% of their annual budget).

That's just not factually true, at all.

Total NR license revenue is $23,017,241 for deer, pronghorn, and elk.

Going 90-10 would by "theory" but not reality, cut that revenue in half...$11,508,620.50 absolutely worse case scenerio with Residents taking every single available tag available to them. I didn't get straight A's in college algebra...but that isn't near 20% of a $90,000,000 budget.

Of course we also haven't added in the fact that Residents would be paying for those tags, they aren't free for us either.

Let's not also forget that there is regulation that NR's must receive 7,250 full priced elk tags in the intial draw...take those out of the lost revenue.

There would also be no loss in revenue from all the Region wide NR deer tags, 90-10 would NOT impact those tag numbers.

According to the presentation at the last task force meeting, how many NR pronghorn and deer tags are rolling into the initial NR draw? None of those tags would be lost under 90-10.

We could also exclude every type 6/7 tag from 90-10 split, even less lost revenue.

Even under the worst case scenario, there is no way in hell that the Department is losing anywhere close to 20% of their annual budget going 90-10.

That's, at best a total misrepresentation of the facts and total dogshit math. Some would be so bold as to call it a flat out lie.

Nobody is denying that there are revenue considerations, but lets keep the facts straight.

That's quite a lashing about budget #'s when earlier in this very thread, after your #'s were called out, you posted the following:

If the budget numbers are your concern...start a new thread.

This thread is about the Wyoming task force...nothing to do with budget. The important math and numbers are 90 and 10.

 

[Laramie]

It would make sense to calm non residents right now to keep interest high in PP. Take everything with a grain of salt.

 

[BuzzH]

That's quite a lashing about budget #'s when earlier in this very thread, after your #'s were called out, you posted the following:

Refute my numbers then...get with it, quite flapping your soup cooler.

 

[wind gypsy]

Refute my numbers then...get with it, quite flapping your soup cooler.

Already did and you said we should start a new thread about #s rather than acknowledge your errors.

 

[BuzzH]

Already did and you said we should start a new thread about #s rather than acknowledge your errors.

Show your work...

How much revenue is the GF going to lose if DEA are 90-10.

Waiting.

 

[Steve O]

I watched the last 2/3 of the Sept 1 meeting. Need to go watch the video of the first 1/3. As Buzz said, they have already screwed the “Big 5” non resident so there was a ton of talk about elk, deer, and antelope. Then a little at the end about landowner wants and needs.

My takeaways were:

-Resident opportunity is already immense. ~240 Wyoming residents take advantage of all tags they are allowed. 99%+ residents don’t take advantage of what they have.

-Many residents that don’t have more tags do so because they do not apply properly for the tags.

-The main push is to keep the premium tags for residents. NR are legislated to get 7250 elk tags. Shift the NR LE elk tags to general elk tags.

BUT, many of the committee members also didn’t like NR getting more general tags as it made their personal public hunting grounds more crowded. So, your 7250 is safe for now but it will be next…

-Some members dislike Type 9 (archery) tags because it allows someone else to hunt before they can with a rifle and possibly take “their” animal or spooked said animal out of the country. How petty. Well, at least it wasn’t just the non resident Type 9 tag holders so there’s a silver lining.

These meetings are very eye opening. If they could only have the NR pay for everything but not actually hold any of the tags, that would be the perfect system!

 

[JFK]

Hard for either side to really say with any certainty what the numbers would look like, isn’t it? You are talking about predicting demand and people’s behavior based on changed rules and less appealing choices to NR. Regardless of actual tags sold, if the pref point money dries up all the budgeting forecasts go out the window, and Wy residents won’t be able to make up the difference to make the G&F whole. But hey, maybe that type of gamble is worth it so they can get 15 tags a year instead of 12.

I’d also say that strictly focusing on the budget of the state agency is a little narrow sighted. Guides, hotels, processors, local restaurants….they are also the beneficiaries of NR hunters. I’ve got an antelope hunt in Wy late this month. Lodging, fishing, processor, I’ll be spending several times more on services than I did on the tag and points. If I can only get out there half as much that’s half as much money to the state, but probably more importantly half as much money to local businesses. That’s why many cities/states try to boost tourism, as it has such far reaching economic benefits.

 

[Archer86]

I am struggling to see how wyoming will loose revenue from this change if there is a set number of tags guaranteed and its just being switched from limited entry tags to general tags for deer elk and antelope for nr it is still the same amount of tags being sold and maybe more at the special price if people know more general tags are available? Demand will always be there for wyoming tags they could double the price of tags and they would still sell them all so the argument they will loose money doing this is irrelevant. They wont

They should take note from idaho look what they did last year. And there tags sold out faster then ever they increased tag prices and capped nr tags per unit for deer and elk

 

[Laramie]

I am struggling to see how wyoming will loose revenue from this change if there is a set number of tags guaranteed and its just being switched from limited entry tags to general tags for deer elk and antelope for nr it is still the same amount of tags being sold and maybe more at the special price if people know more general tags are available? Demand will always be there for wyoming tags they could double the price of tags and they would still sell them all so the argument they will loose money doing this is irrelevant. They wont

They should take note from idaho look what they did last year. And there tags sold out faster then ever they increased tag prices and capped nr tags per unit for deer and elk

Deer and antelope do not have general tags. Both will be significantly reduced. Elk is the only species where tags will be moved to general. There will also likely be fewer preference points sold with reduced opportunity.

 

[Archer86]

Deer and antelope do not have general tags. Both will be significantly reduced. Elk is the only species where tags will be moved to general. There will also likely be fewer preference points sold with reduced opportunity.

Ok that makes some sense but I don't think there will be much of a impact. Preference point sales will not go down they have been steadily increasing which has reduce opportunities for the guys that got in on the points when they first started how is that different there opportunity was reduced because more people started buying points? With the logic that people will stop buying preference points due to loosing some tag quota that means it will reduce the number of people applying and the nr odds will get better with less people in the points pool if you think its going to be that big of a impact or thats just a what could happen when everyone knows it won't. Wyoming demand for nr tags will always exceed the supply they will not loose any revenue that can't be made up and there will not be a decline In Preference point sales it will just keep increasing every state In The west is getting harder to get tags so more people are applying in more states to try and get tags

 

[tdhanses]

Hard for either side to really say with any certainty what the numbers would look like, isn’t it? You are talking about predicting demand and people’s behavior based on changed rules and less appealing choices to NR. Regardless of actual tags sold, if the pref point money dries up all the budgeting forecasts go out the window, and Wy residents won’t be able to make up the difference to make the G&F whole. But hey, maybe that type of gamble is worth it so they can get 15 tags a year instead of 12.

I’d also say that strictly focusing on the budget of the state agency is a little narrow sighted. Guides, hotels, processors, local restaurants….they are also the beneficiaries of NR hunters. I’ve got an antelope hunt in Wy late this month. Lodging, fishing, processor, I’ll be spending several times more on services than I did on the tag and points. If I can only get out there half as much that’s half as much money to the state, but probably more importantly half as much money to local businesses. That’s why many cities/states try to boost tourism, as it has such far reaching economic benefits.

My buddy and I have an elk tag, our tags alone cost over $2600 combined not including pt fees, we already brought over $12k into the local economy and will be staying in a hotel one night plus im sure a few small incidentals. Another two buddies spent that much last year, NR‘s dump a ton of cash into local economies but if it doesn’t directly effect someone they don’t seem to care.

Now I get not every hunter does the guided route but many hunters do, maybe none of the outfitters and guides live in WY.

Not sure yet if i’ll continue to buy pts in future as I see this being taken away in the near future as well or tags reduced to where NR opportunities aren’t great, maybe i’ll be wrong but maybe not.

I do think all modeling expects NR to continue buying pts for all species, I think it’ll take a few years but once people realize the reduction of opportunity they’ll stop investing towards it, yes not all but if half the NR stop buying pts for all species that’ll be a large rev reduction in itself.

 

[tdhanses]

Ok that makes some sense but I don't think there will be much of a impact. Preference point sales will not go down they have been steadily increasing which has reduce opportunities for the guys that got in on the points when they first started how is that different there opportunity was reduced because more people started buying points? With the logic that people will stop buying preference points due to loosing some tag quota that means it will reduce the number of people applying and the nr odds will get better with less people in the points pool if you think its going to be that big of a impact or thats just a what could happen when everyone knows it won't. Wyoming demand for nr tags will always exceed the supply they will not loose any revenue that can't be made up and there will not be a decline In Preference point sales it will just keep increasing every state In The west is getting harder to get tags so more people are applying in more states to try and get tags

Guess really we’ll only know in time once it happens, its all an assumption that nothing will change with the NR view of WY which from what I can tell WY residents would be more then happy if zero NR came to the state.

 

[Laramie]

You

Ok that makes some sense but I don't think there will be much of a impact. Preference point sales will not go down they have been steadily increasing which has reduce opportunities for the guys that got in on the points when they first started how is that different there opportunity was reduced because more people started buying points? With the logic that people will stop buying preference points due to loosing some tag quota that means it will reduce the number of people applying and the nr odds will get better with less people in the points pool if you think its going to be that big of a impact or thats just a what could happen when everyone knows it won't. Wyoming demand for nr tags will always exceed the supply they will not loose any revenue that can't be made up and there will not be a decline In Preference point sales it will just keep increasing every state In The west is getting harder to get tags so more people are applying in more states to try and get tags

Do you understand basic math? Define much of an impact to you. 90/10 for dea would be significant from a budget standpoint.

Regarding PP, do you really think the average guy is willing to jump in the PP game for an antelope knowing it will take 15+ years for a tag that now takes 5? 25 years for a deer tag that now takes 10? Some might but guessing a good percentage will bail.

Add up the non resident antelope permits alone and the impact is easy to see just from lost permit revenue.

Now of course there are ways to make up that money. Most people's first response is permit increases. That will cover the loss initially but in reality it is made up money. If non residents are willing to pay more, they can raise under the current allocations and have even more. Cut the permits, and that becomes exponentially limited, forever.

I'm not saying it won't happen... It will eventually but long term budget problems will be created.