Wyo Task Force - Nonres Comments!

[mhabiger]

Not even close to correct...

There would be no loss of Region wide NR deer tags, No loss in total NR full price elk tags in the initial draw either.

Loss to pronghorn tags wouldn't be even close to your numbers either...NR's get a lot of tags that drop from the Resident side of the draw in the initial draw, as well as most of the second draw tags as well.

I did similar calculations and the biggest revenue change would be from NR limited entry deer tags (no loss in all the region tags)...about 1.4 million in revenue. Big 5 is $198,000...elk is $0. Pronghorn would be insignificant, but I would say worse case, maybe a loss of $250K.

Raising annual Resident fishing licenses $3 would cover the loss to the big 5 ($222,540)...with about $30k to spare.

Raising Resident full price tags by $10 would generate 1.48 million...room to spare by about $80k.

Before you can calculate 90-10, you have to understand regulation and how WY issues NR tags...you don't.

Huh...last I checked there weren't any statues on 90-10 since it doesn't exist. Thanks for making some! I'll get right on incorporating these new statues into the spreadsheet!

I'll assume positive intent and read between the lines and take the greater point that I should have explicitly stated the spreadsheets assumptions:

• Spreadsheet assumes residents/nonresidents fully purchase all their given quota
• To the extent that nonresidents are allowed to purchase (and do purchase) leftover resident tags, more of the burden will be picked up by nonresidents

 

[BuzzH]

Huh...last I checked there weren't any statues on 90-10 since it doesn't exist. Thanks for making some! I'll get right on incorporating these new statues into the spreadsheet!

I'll assume positive intent and read between the lines and take the greater point that I should have explicitly stated the spreadsheets assumptions:

• Spreadsheet assumes residents/nonresidents fully purchase all their given quota
• To the extent that nonresidents are allowed to purchase (and do purchase) leftover resident tags, more of the burden will be picked up by nonresidents

Here, since you seem confused.

CURRENT elk regulation is that NR's are issued 7,250 full price elk tags in the initial draw.

Meaning: NR's will lose NO tags under 90-10, will still get 7,250 full priced tags as well as any leftovers they draw.

CURRENT deer regulations: Non Residents are NOT under 80-20 splits for all the available NR region wide deer tags and those tag numbers will NOT change under 90-10.

NR Pronghorn tag numbers will NOT decrease to anything close to 10% under 90-10, NR's will still very likely get nearly 50% of the total pronghorn tags.

What you did, was to take all the available NR deer tags and then make the 90-10 split, that isnt what's going to happen.

Same with elk, there will be ZERO loss of NR full price elk tags under 90-10...and you did the same thing with your 90-10 split just totaled all elk tags then split 90-10, which isn't correct at all.

 

[BuzzH]

Huh...last I checked there weren't any statues on 90-10 since it doesn't exist. Thanks for making some! I'll get right on incorporating these new statues into the spreadsheet!

I'll assume positive intent and read between the lines and take the greater point that I should have explicitly stated the spreadsheets assumptions:

• Spreadsheet assumes residents/nonresidents fully purchase all their given quota
• To the extent that nonresidents are allowed to purchase (and do purchase) leftover resident tags, more of the burden will be picked up by nonresidents

Region Deer Hunt Areas Quotas
A 3750
B 1350
C 2500
D 400
F 550
G 400
H 600
J 900
K 250
M 600
Q 600
T 400
W 750
X 200
Y 1800

These are the region wide deer quotas, they won't be impacted by 90-10, just like they aren't impacted by 80-20.

So, of all the deer tags available to NR's you would have to subtract out all of these from your spread sheet totals, since they are not allocated on a split of any kind. Its ONLY LQ areas where NR deer tags would be impacted by 90-10(units like 128, 102, 101, etc).

Elk regulation, Chapter 44:

(iv) Elk. A total license limit of seven thousand two hundred-fifty (7,250) nonresident elk licenses shall be made available to nonresident applicants in the initial drawing each year.

The way the draw works, is that LQ areas are drawn first (7, 19, 22, 124, 31, etc. etc.) The balance of 7,250 full price tags are issued as general licenses.

Meaning, there will be a loss of ZERO NR full priced elk tags in Wyoming, just a bigger balance will be issued as general tags.

Clear?

 

[Chad E]

Here, since you seem confused.

CURRENT elk regulation is that NR's are issued 7,250 full price elk tags in the initial draw.

Meaning: NR's will lose NO tags under 90-10, will still get 7,250 full priced tags as well as any leftovers they draw.

CURRENT deer regulations: Non Residents are NOT under 80-20 splits for all the available NR region wide deer tags and those tag numbers will NOT change under 90-10.

NR Pronghorn tag numbers will NOT decrease to anything close to 10% under 90-10, NR's will still very likely get nearly 50% of the total pronghorn tags.

What you did, was to take all the available NR deer tags and then make the 90-10 split, that isnt what's going to happen.

Same with elk, there will be ZERO loss of NR full price elk tags under 90-10...and you did the same thing with your 90-10 split just totaled all elk tags then split 90-10, which isn't correct at all.

Come on Buzz your are speaking the truth but not telling the whole story. Your using percentages and numbers to paint a rosy picture but from the non resident perspective it doesn't add up.
Yes per statue nonresident elk tags as a whole won't drop the loss in limited quota will be made up in general tags. On the surface thats not horrible until you realize the point creep that's going to occur when all the folks chasing LQ tags cash in there points on general because it becomes their only option. Not to mention the non resident bashing that's coming for us overcrowding your general units because that's all that's available to us with 5 points.
Yes nonresident regional deer allocations won't drop(because residents can just go hunt general units) but if you think G and H are hard to draw now wait till all those dudes one or two points under max points that are chasing LQ tags realize they now have 0% chance of drawing jump into regional tag draws.
Yes your right nonresidents will still end up with more than 10% of pronghorn tags. Just be prepared to burn 3 to 5 points to hunt a difficult access unit.
I support states protecting their residents opportunities. I fully appreciate the opportunity that wyoming provides me as a non resident to hunt there when I draw the tag. But I really wish the folks on this thread pretending that this isn't a big deal for non residents would stop with the spin. It absolutely is and it will absolutely change non resident hunting in wyoming. Stop pissing down my neck and telling me it's raining comes to mind.

 

[BuzzH]

Come on Buzz your are speaking the truth but not telling the whole story. Your using percentages and numbers to paint a rosy picture but from the non resident perspective it doesn't add up.
Yes per statue nonresident elk tags as a whole won't drop the loss in limited quota will be made up in general tags. On the surface thats not horrible until you realize the point creep that's going to occur when all the folks chasing LQ tags cash in there points on general because it becomes their only option. Not to mention the non resident bashing that's coming for us overcrowding your general units because that's all that's available to us with 5 points.
Yes nonresident regional deer allocations won't drop(because residents can just go hunt general units) but if you think G and H are hard to draw now wait till all those dudes one or two points under max points that are chasing LQ tags realize they now have 0% chance of drawing jump into regional tag draws.
Yes your right nonresidents will still end up with more than 10% of pronghorn tags. Just be prepared to burn 3 to 5 points to hunt a difficult access unit.
I support states protecting their residents opportunities. I fully appreciate the opportunity that wyoming provides me as a non resident to hunt there when I draw the tag. But I really wish the folks on this thread pretending that this isn't a big deal for non residents would stop with the spin. It absolutely is and it will absolutely change non resident hunting in wyoming. Stop pissing down my neck and telling me it's raining comes to mind.

For the average NR hunter, the changes will not be significant...sure the guys that have been holding points for the couple 2-3 areas like 124 elk, 100 elk, 128 mule deer, 60 pronghorn etc...yeah they will have a longer wait.

That's the price you pay for only applying for the "perceived" best units in any state. Don't feel sorry for them at all...they could have hunted multiple quality tags for all species a couple times.

Point creep is going to remain even if NR allocations were doubled...just this year, 25% increase in NR elk applications in Wyoming. THAT is what's driving point creep wayyyy more than allocation splits.

I've never once said that NR's wouldn't be impacted in LQ areas...and frankly, I don't care. Wyoming residents want similar allocations to what residents receive in states like ID, MT, NM, AZ, etc. and that's not unrealistic or unreasonable in any way.

However, if the guy in question is going to flaunt a spread sheet, it should be factual and its nothing close to factual.

I did the same thing...and the fiscal part of 90-10 is nothing to worry about, the revenue loss will be less than $2 million total.

NR's are still going to be hunting Wyoming at much higher percentages, and much more often, than damn near any other State they apply for, even under 90-10.

I've applied for 19 years for every species but mountain goat, and still have not drawn a single tag. I know nobody that has applied for DEA in Wyoming for 19 years and hasn't drawn, most multiples of each in quality areas. Area's that are likely better than all but a handful of NV's best units.

The level of NR whining and complaining doesn't equate to the actual impact...not even close.

 

[Chad E]

For the average NR hunter, the changes will not be significant...sure the guys that have been holding points for the couple 2-3 areas like 124 elk, 100 elk, 128 mule deer, 60 pronghorn etc...yeah they will have a longer wait.

That's the price you pay for only applying for the "perceived" best units in any state. Don't feel sorry for them at all...they could have hunted multiple quality tags for all species a couple times.

Point creep is going to remain even if NR allocations were doubled...just this year, 25% increase in NR elk applications in Wyoming. THAT is what's driving point creep wayyyy more than allocation splits.

I've never once said that NR's wouldn't be impacted in LQ areas...and frankly, I don't care. Wyoming residents want similar allocations to what residents receive in states like ID, MT, NM, AZ, etc. and that's not unrealistic or unreasonable in any way.

However, if the guy in question is going to flaunt a spread sheet, it should be factual and its nothing close to factual.

I did the same thing...and the fiscal part of 90-10 is nothing to worry about, the revenue loss will be less than $2 million total.

NR's are still going to be hunting Wyoming at much higher percentages, and much more often, than damn near any other State they apply for, even under 90-10.

I've applied for 19 years for every species but mountain goat, and still have not drawn a single tag. I know nobody that has applied for DEA in Wyoming for 19 years and hasn't drawn, most multiples of each in quality areas. Area's that are likely better than all but a handful of NV's best units.

The level of NR whining and complaining doesn't equate to the actual impact...not even

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. You say guys are going to have to wait longer for the top tags. I think the reality is they never will draw them under 90 10
I'm personally on the other end of the spectrum chasing frequent "easier" to draw options. I see no way that this doesn't have a huge impact on both the frequency and quality of the tags I can draw.
Again I support Wyoming looking after its residents I'm just throwing out there how I see it from this side.

 

[bayoublaster7527]

I understand that the 90/10 split will have a relatively limited effect on license revenue and can be easily recouped with a small increase in resident license fees. I think the major unknown is how this will affect revenue from pref point purchases as some non-residents will get out of the pp game as they see point creep and reduced LQ allocation converging to create a scenario where they cannot draw one of those premium limited tags in their lifetime. Maybe increased random pass allocations in the draw could mitigate that. We will definitely see increased pressure and point creep with general tags but that seemed to be happening even without a change to LQ tag allocations.

 

[wapitibob]

'Yes per statue nonresident elk tags as a whole won't drop the loss in limited quota will be made up in general tags. On the surface thats not horrible until you realize the point creep that's going to occur when all the folks chasing LQ tags cash in there points on general because it becomes their only option. "

Wy has been supplementing GEN tags with undersubscribed LQ tags since the 7250 went into affect. Those quota balance tags are issued thru the special random draw after the main Elk draw takas place and are essentially invisible as they only show up in unpublished reports from the dept. It won't affect point creep but has and will increase the draw odds for special gen licenses.

 

[wapitibob]

Applications have increased year over year since the E/D/A draw started. Nothing has slowed it down, not the economy, not price increases, not cutting tag quotas. Applicants aren't going to stop applying till they stop breathing.

 

[mhabiger]

Region Deer Hunt Areas Quotas
A 3750
B 1350
C 2500
D 400
F 550
G 400
H 600
J 900
K 250
M 600
Q 600
T 400
W 750
X 200
Y 1800

These are the region wide deer quotas, they won't be impacted by 90-10, just like they aren't impacted by 80-20.

So, of all the deer tags available to NR's you would have to subtract out all of these from your spread sheet totals, since they are not allocated on a split of any kind. Its ONLY LQ areas where NR deer tags would be impacted by 90-10(units like 128, 102, 101, etc).

Elk regulation, Chapter 44:

(iv) Elk. A total license limit of seven thousand two hundred-fifty (7,250) nonresident elk licenses shall be made available to nonresident applicants in the initial drawing each year.

The way the draw works, is that LQ areas are drawn first (7, 19, 22, 124, 31, etc. etc.) The balance of 7,250 full price tags are issued as general licenses.

Meaning, there will be a loss of ZERO NR full priced elk tags in Wyoming, just a bigger balance will be issued as general tags.

Clear?

Yeah, we are talking past each other.

Those are the current statues. The task force can recommend new statues, to change existing stateus, or remove existing statues. So they may choose to work with what exists (under your scenario) or start fresh. They will then make recommendations to the legislature who could chose to vote on all, any or none of those recommendations.

If they choose to work under the current statues I'll take your point. At the end of the day though, people reading this thread show know that nothing is a foregone conclusion and in 12 months time the task force will make recommendations to the legislature.

So 90-10 can take many shapes and its worth submitting comments for the shape you want it to take (or possibly not take at all).

 

[Rat]

Region Deer Hunt Areas Quotas
A 3750
B 1350
C 2500
D 400
F 550
G 400
H 600
J 900
K 250
M 600
Q 600
T 400
W 750
X 200
Y 1800

These are the region wide deer quotas, they won't be impacted by 90-10, just like they aren't impacted by 80-20.

So, of all the deer tags available to NR's you would have to subtract out all of these from your spread sheet totals, since they are not allocated on a split of any kind. Its ONLY LQ areas where NR deer tags would be impacted by 90-10(units like 128, 102, 101, etc).

Elk regulation, Chapter 44:

(iv) Elk. A total license limit of seven thousand two hundred-fifty (7,250) nonresident elk licenses shall be made available to nonresident applicants in the initial drawing each year.

The way the draw works, is that LQ areas are drawn first (7, 19, 22, 124, 31, etc. etc.) The balance of 7,250 full price tags are issued as general licenses.

Meaning, there will be a loss of ZERO NR full priced elk tags in Wyoming, just a bigger balance will be issued as general tags.

Clear?

In terms of loss revenue and NR opportunity these quotas having to be lowered due to lack of deer probably has or will have a larger impact than 90:10. I don't follow a lot of areas but one that I do is region M, it's down to only 600 tags less than half of what it was 10 or 15 years ago. If these populations continue to decline both residents and nonresidents are in trouble. Although I am probably less informed than most I do believe that Wyoming does a pretty good job of adjusting quotas to wildlife populations.

 

[BuzzH]

Yeah, we are talking past each other.

Those are the current statues. The task force can recommend new statues, to change existing stateus, or remove existing statues. So they may choose to work with what exists (under your scenario) or start fresh. They will then make recommendations to the legislature who could chose to vote on all, any or none of those recommendations.

If they choose to work under the current statues I'll take your point. At the end of the day though, people reading this thread show know that nothing is a foregone conclusion and in 12 months time the task force will make recommendations to the legislature.

So 90-10 can take many shapes and its worth submitting comments for the shape you want it to take (or possibly not take at all).

The task force is going to move a lot faster on 90-10 than 12 months. They were put on notice last Legislative session...have 90-10 figured out or else.

They already talked about having a 90-10 proposal to the Legislature by February.

Not to pick nits, but the 7250 on elk is not in statute its in regulation...and that makes a big difference if changes are made.

 

[jmez]

The 7250 will change within ,5 years of a 90/10 split on elk.

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[BuzzH]

The 7250 will change within ,5 years of a 90/10 split on elk.

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Doubtful...WOGA tried a few years back and got handed a pretty healthy defeat by the Commission and Resident hunters.

No way it will be decreased either...we have the best general elk hunting in the West, by a wide margin.

No reason to adjust it either up or down.

 

[Laramie]

Doubtful...WOGA tried a few years back and got handed a pretty healthy defeat by the Commission and Resident hunters.

No way it will be decreased either...we have the best general elk hunting in the West, by a wide margin.

No reason to adjust it either up or down.

I hope you are right but I'm skeptical. Added pressure in general areas is going to become a pretty hot topic with residents in some areas of the state.

I would prefer they implement choose your weapon at the same time to spread the pressure out some.

 

[cgasner1]

I’ve heard our population in Montana has grown almost 10% this year how is Wyoming doing if you think adding that many more non residents plus you new comers in won’t make the general worse your lieing to yourself


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[wytx]

Not in favor of choose your weapon. Archery hunting would take a hit in Wyoming of we had to choose our weapon. We should be encouraging archery hunting, not limiting it.
Maybe for NR , but no choose your weapon for residents.

 

[Laramie]

Not in favor of choose your weapon. Archery hunting would take a hit in Wyoming of we had to choose our weapon. We should be encouraging archery hunting, not limiting it.
Maybe for NR , but no choose your weapon for residents.

I understand your point of view and felt that way most of my life- especially as a resident. However the last few elk hunts I was on, the archery pressure has gone up so much that the quality of the experience has really declined. Maybe spilt it like they do in area 11? First couple weeks for the archery only tags and then 2 weeks of general holders. I think spreading the pressure out would really positively impact the hunting for all.

 

[Bighorner]

I dont hunt out of state and am admittedly very ignorant of regulations outside of my home state. What is the non resident tag allocation in places like the midwest or the moose allocation split in Maine or alligator in florida?

 

[4rcgoat]

I dont hunt out of state and am admittedly very ignorant of regulations outside of my home state. What is the non resident tag allocation in places like the midwest or the moose allocation split in Maine or alligator in florida?

Solid question