Why cant people accept the fact that some people dont need a drop tested scope?

[roosiebull]

People bashing scopes has been happening far before Form showed up and far far before drop test.

While rings and bases aren’t built into the drop test Form has said many times that they are equally as important. I would bet money you couldn’t find one person preaching Forms test that would tell you to put a NF in cheap rings.

I get that there are many that feel like Forms stamp of approval is all that is needed but Form himself advocates for people to do their own testing because ALL products can and will fail.

I view this as I do buying a vehicle. I love Toyotas, they have always treated me well. Guess what, my Toyota has had issues but it has had far less issues in 23 years than my wife’s Kia (also like it) has had in 7 years. Both have had failures but the rate has been far lower on my Toyota That is what these tests are meant to show. It’s one more data point to be used when doing your own research.

If people just believing their system is reliable because they bought Forms recommended stuff is your biggest complaint, remember that people also just buy Leupold because grandpa had one and people buy Vortex because the warranty. It goes both ways.

The beauty of the drop test is that anyone can do it. It doesn’t require special equipment. You need a mat, your gun, ammo and dirt. Anyone can do it. For those that are so hell bent about one scope not being an indication of bad brand/model overall. Prove it. Seriously, I want you to prove it wrong because 1600 bucks for another NXS is going to get expensive.

That’s a pretty fair comparison… I have almost always driven Toyota pickups, a few years ago bought a new 18’ trd off road taco, and was a great rig while I had it… I had to go test drive a Colorado zr2 and I couldn’t fill out the paperwork fast enough to trade in my Toyota… it was a better rig everywhere, especially power and on/off road handling

Had to get a bigger pickup to pull my bigger boat so traded it in for a tundra… got my wife talked into driving the tundra so I could get another zr2, it’s my favorite vehicle on the road period

Now I’m just over 90k and need to change the sway bar end links, have a broken baffle in my muffler, have an oil leak, and have a transmission shudder… I’m not looking forward to the bill to get it back in order (oh yeah, one of the bed brackets fell off too)

I have never had a Toyota that developed that many problems, especially in that timeframe. I’m certainly not easy on pickups, but I never have been.

My pickup is the leupold of pickups… it’s seriously the best production vehicle in existence for what I do, but apparently at the cost of reliability, it sucks because it works so good, and fun to drive, and it was the pickup I was going to drive until it was dead (still might be )

It has all of the features right, it performs excellent, but it’s not proving to be very tough. Now I’m thinking of getting this thing fixed, trading it in for a non trd Tacoma and building the suspension system myself trying to get it handling as well as my pickup, because reliability is still the most important feature

 

[roosiebull]

I'd guess optics makers/sellers probably feel the same way.

More so the ones that don’t pass

 

[JGRaider]

More so the ones that don’t pass

Possibly, but I'd tend to bet that none of them pay any attention to RS or any other optic forum for that matter.

 

[KenLee]

Testing a Used scope is another variable regardless how you FEEL about it doesn't matter its a uncontrollable variable that Could likely influence the out come of the evaluation.

Broke is broke. I know. I've been broke

 

[Gone4Days]

Also, if you’re not shooting a 10 shot group you are collecting insignificant data lol

 

[jimh406]

My pickup is the leupold of pickups…

Not even close. Leupold is a brand with lots of models produced over decades.

However, you are demonstrating part of the problem. Some people can break anything. It's up to you if you chose to drive the vehicle that won't stand up to you. The same is true for a scope. Buy what does what you need it to.

I bet we can find people that had very few of the issues you had with that same model ZR2, but also, we can find people who've had issues with a Toyota.

For scopes, it seems we are talking about small sample sizes for the most part. However, there are some here that insist all Leupolds will fail. Maybe they are right.

 

[dirtytough]

If you ride an atv with a gun in a rack on it...

Uh this is Rokslide. Pretty sure everyone on here laces up their boots in the house and starts walking from there. The only ATV RS’ers use are Crocs.

I'm not looking to get sucked into this back-and-forth by either side, but Form has pointed out at least once that scopes that pass all portions of the drop test do not exhibit loss of zero issues during the ride-along portion of the eval.

There is a failure out there that happened after the drop test portion. Obviously according to the info presented it’s not the norm. But can happen.

 

[CorbLand]

Not even close. Leupold is a brand with lots of models produced over decades.

However, you are demonstrating part of the problem. Some people can break anything. It's up to you if you chose to drive the vehicle that won't stand up to you. The same is true for a scope. Buy what does what you need it to.

I bet we can find people that had very few of the issues you had with that same model ZR2, but also, we can find people who've had issues with a Toyota.

For scopes, it seems we are talking about small sample sizes for the most part. However, there are some here that insist all Leupolds will fail. Maybe they are right.

That is why you have to look at failure rates and type of failures and not just failures.

Some of those issues he had with the ZR2 are self inflicted and/or standard wear items but the transmission problem is a known issue with the Colorado's. They have had transmission issues since they rebuilt it.

 

[Macintosh]

My somewhat warped sense of humor thinks it would be super awesome if this thread became a couple more pages worth of questionable analogues.

I liken it to sneakers. My wife weighs (cough) a lot less than me. When we buy running shoes, they both wear out at some point. But given I weigh nearly double what she does, the cushioning wears out faster in mine, and also because I like to walk the dog down in the alder run by the brook and I get them covered in mud regularly, and she walks the dog on our road and they stay relatively clean, the uppers on mine come apart a lot faster. Same brand, equivalent model. Neither of us run a lot, so they get what I would consider “light use” (or Id have worn boots). But one of us consistently wears out shoes faster than the other.

 

[prm]

If “needed”, then explain the previous hundred years of hunting?

I appreciate the drops and think they represent exactly the way sights should evolve and the shift in what should be considered important. But to suggest you can’t use a non-dropped scope and have a lifetime of happy hunting simply ignores historical precedent. This is not an all or nothing factor.

 

[35WhelenAI]

It's great to have the Internet and it's great for folks to have an audience. On both sides of this discussion.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

How many scopes of each model are tested?

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

If “needed”, then explain the previous hundred years of hunting?

I appreciate the drops and think they represent exactly the way sights should evolve and the shift in what should be considered important. But to suggest you can’t use a non-dropped scope and have a lifetime of happy hunting simply ignores historical precedent. This is not an all or nothing factor.

NO ONE SUGGESTED THAT. I think we've beaten to death the fact that "most hunters shoot game at distances that it wouldn't matter if the scope had a notable zero shift". That also falls under, use what works for you. Just don't pretend that means scopes don't shift is the point. Dead animals at close ranges doesn't validate whether a scope shifts or not.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

How many scopes of each model are tested?

Here you can read up on what is going on. We've already hashed out where your question is likely going btw. What is going on here is a data point for users to take into consideration, it is not the authoritative end all be all. Ideally the industry would rise to the occasion and develop a standard but that won't happen till its demanded by users.

Scope Field Eval Explanation and Standards

This will be about the “why” of the field evaluations- specifically the drop “tests”. Let’s have a thought experiment. Let’s say you have spotted a buck across a valley, planned and executed a stalk which when you get to the last little knob up ahead, will put you within 400-450 yards of the...

rokslide.com

 

[35WhelenAI]

NO ONE SUGGESTED THAT. I think we've beaten to death the fact that "most hunters shoot game at distances that it wouldn't matter if the scope had a notable zero shift". That also falls under, use what works for you. Just don't pretend that means scopes don't shift is the point. Dead animals at close ranges doesn't validate whether a scope shifts or not.

I like this post, the kind we need more of to validate yet state differing points of view.

What is close range considered? My lesser scopes have done it out to 400 yards for 30 years, with shift I assume. Folks know that is almost 1/4 of a mile. I don't know the number, what is the average distance big game is taken in the United States? I would bet it's on the near side of 400 yards and probably even closer than 300.

 

[Yukon Cornelius]

Here you can read up on what is going on. We've already hashed out where your question is likely going btw. What is going on here is a data point for users to take into consideration, it is not the authoritative end all be all. Ideally the industry would rise to the occasion and develop a standard but that won't happen till its demanded by users.

Scope Field Eval Explanation and Standards

This will be about the “why” of the field evaluations- specifically the drop “tests”. Let’s have a thought experiment. Let’s say you have spotted a buck across a valley, planned and executed a stalk which when you get to the last little knob up ahead, will put you within 400-450 yards of the...

rokslide.com

That’s a lot of reading. lol

I’m going to assume it’s one scope? Or is it 10? 100?

I enjoy reading the scope drop test results. Given me pause a few times. But despite that, I’ll grab a leupold over a SWFA all day. Every day.

But…I also took a vx3hd off a rifle and am reading for a different scope.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

What is close range considered? My lesser scopes have done it out to 400 yards for 30 years, with shift I assume. Folks know that is almost 1/4 of a mile. I don't know the number, what is the average distance big game is taken in the United States? I would bet it's on the near side of 400 yards and probably even closer than 300.

How much zero shift is acceptable in a scope for close range hunters?

I think when you factor in eastern hunters and stand hunters its probably <200yd, maybe even <150yds. Not uncommon to have eastern hunters mention they've never shot past 100yd ever. You could have a 6MOA shift and still likely kill at 100yd...

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

That’s a lot of reading. lol

I’m going to assume it’s one scope? Or is it 10? 100?

I enjoy reading the scope drop test results. Given me pause a few times. But despite that, I’ll grab a leupold over a SWFA all day. Every day.

But…I also took a vx3hd off a rifle and am reading for a different scope.

So I take it you're just trolling then? I mean for starters you are again asking something already asked/discussed in this thread a few times.

 

[Jason Snyder]

This thread WAS kinda interesting. Now I want to shove an ice pick in my eyeball, so I’m loading up some ammo to go shoot today. I guess that’s a positive.

 

[chindits]

How often do you check zero? How often is it off by ½" to 1" for no explainable reason?

All the time and that’s in the same shooting session with a 2.5-15 creedo. Every time I check my target and move it back another 100 meters I can count on an impact shift. But since I’m shooting off a pack in different positions with the wind picking up as the sun rises I could give a crap. I’m still good to 700 meters.