More elk killed by mtn lions than wolves?

[Ian Ketterman]

This is why it is important to call your politicians and tell them to quit pussyfooting with the wolves. I promise the PETA/wolf fetish crowd is calling relentlessly.

 

[Blinginpse]

They are defiantly worse in some locations. Remote areas are hit the hardest. Areas with heavy timber are a close second.

As for killing them, I have shot one. I will shoot any legal wolf I see. But like cats, you will rarely see them. Trapping is the best way to kill them but if you have been to Idaho, you know that's no picnic either. It's steep and deep then add snow.

I've never been but I've gathered that from reading here. I would think youd rather have cats then wolves? I'd hope every hunter would kill amy wolf he could

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

 

[bluetick78]

I wish they would break it down to regions. Lots of micro-climates in Idaho.

They didn't point out how wolves make cats kill more because they do take over cat kills.

Wolf packs also push elk much more in the snow. Making them easier targets for all predators.

This mirrors my experiences exactly. I hunted lions in central Idaho before, during, and after the wolf reintroduction. I found dozens of elk kills that told a story of a lion killing an elk and having wolves take it over. The lion has no choice but to go make another kill.
There's also a good number of people that believe that a lion can't kill a mature elk, but I know from experience that they can and in some areas it's quite often. Many parts of Idaho used to have huge populations of mule deer prior to the winterkill of 91-92. After that some areas rebounded with deer and some did not. The areas that did not now have larger populations of elk than they did prior to 1991, but the lion population remains largely the same. Those lions are killing elk more efficiently and more often than they used to. I've shot lions and plenty of wolves, and will continue to do so until I'm dead.

 

[jmcd22]

http://fwp.mt.gov/fwpDoc.html?id=73152

Why’s it so hard to believe?

Lions are opportunistic hunters and I don't think of elk as very opportunistic. But then again, I am not a lion. I've seen first hand the destruction wolves have done to elk and I just have a hard time believing this. One thing I am interested in is what areas this "study" was done in and the lion to wolf numbers. If there are lower wolf numbers, then it might be entirely accurate but as a whole, I just doubt it.

 

[jmcd22]

I didn't read the study but is there a comparison between population size of cats vs wolves in the study area? Did they account for the different in comparing kill stats?

My thoughts exactly. If there are lower wolf numbers than cats, then it is possible but vice versa? I doubt it. I just don't see it.

 

[GordonFreeman]

Not hard for me to believe...

Dogs are sloppy, lazy hunters, more scavengers even.

Cats are prehistoric precision killing machines.

 

[Ross]

My lab sloppy if he was a killer these wolves ain’t sloppy anything other than plain killers looks like planned war party to me

 

[jmcd22]

Picture two just has a good boy in it! Haha

 

[Ross]

When they start bathing in one of you favorite wallows it piss s you off

 

[Justin Crossley]

I have lived and hunted in areas highly populated with cats my whole life. The elk herds are strong and have been for a long time. Most of Idaho was the same about 15-20 years ago. Now, there are areas in Idaho where the elk herds are very drastically reduced in numbers. The only real thing that has changed is wolves. I have heard and read of some biologists stating that cats are killing more now than they used to. I believe that is because the wolves are chasing them off their kills causing them to kill again.

 

[mtmuley]

I have lived and hunted in areas highly populated with cats my whole life. The elk herds are strong and have been for a long time. Most of Idaho was the same about 15-20 years ago. Now, there are areas in Idaho where the elk herds are very drastically reduced in numbers. The only real thing that has changed is wolves. I have heard and read of some biologists stating that cats are killing more now than they used to. I believe that is because the wolves are chasing them off their kills causing them to kill again.

Hmmmm… Got proof? mtmuley

 

[BeaverHunter]

Hmmmm… Got proof? mtmuley

I was wondering when you were going to get here.

 

[Justin Crossley]

Hmmmm… Got proof? mtmuley

Did I say it was a fact or an opinion? Read what wrote before you try starting something.

Sent from my E6833 using Tapatalk

 

[slick]

Lions are opportunistic hunters and I don't think of elk as very opportunistic. But then again, I am not a lion. I've seen first hand the destruction wolves have done to elk and I just have a hard time believing this. One thing I am interested in is what areas this "study" was done in and the lion to wolf numbers. If there are lower wolf numbers, then it might be entirely accurate but as a whole, I just doubt it.

I’m not sure why an elk wouldn’t be an opportunistic prey source for a cat? Haha “this “study” “...

This was conducted by some of the words best Wildlife Research Biologists. It’s science, it’s unbiased as it can get. They reported their findings. If you want to know where they did the study, read the paper- because it might tell you that.

One thing that carries weight with me, which was previously stated...cats were on the landscape (in varying densities) making their living and people became used to that level of predation. That level of predation may or may not have been noticeable to some people. Add another predator into the system and it changed what “normalized” prey densities are to hunters. Now it seems that wolves do all the killing, and the cats are flying under the radar so to speak because everyone is hyper aware of wolves.

As others have said too; that’s not to say that wolves aren’t forcing cats to kill more, or putting elk in a lower fitness level making them easier to kill, or pushing them to cats, etc.

 

[jolemons]

I’m not sure why an elk wouldn’t be an opportunistic prey source for a cat? Haha “this “study” “...

This was conducted by some of the words best Wildlife Research Biologists. It’s science, it’s unbiased as it can get. They reported their findings. If you want to know where they did the study, read the paper- because it might tell you that.

One thing that carries weight with me, which was previously stated...cats were on the landscape (in varying densities) making their living and people became used to that level of predation. That level of predation may or may not have been noticeable to some people. Add another predator into the system and it changed what “normalized” prey densities are to hunters. Now it seems that wolves do all the killing, and the cats are flying under the radar so to speak because everyone is hyper aware of wolves.

As others have said too; that’s not to say that wolves aren’t forcing cats to kill more, or putting elk in a lower fitness level making them easier to kill, or pushing them to cats, etc.

Well said

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[jonpall]

I'm tagging in on this thread just because I know it's going to get good.

Anything with "wolves" will do that.

 

[BuzzH]

I have lived and hunted in areas highly populated with cats my whole life. The elk herds are strong and have been for a long time. Most of Idaho was the same about 15-20 years ago. Now, there are areas in Idaho where the elk herds are very drastically reduced in numbers. The only real thing that has changed is wolves. I have heard and read of some biologists stating that cats are killing more now than they used to. I believe that is because the wolves are chasing them off their kills causing them to kill again.

The only thing that’s changed is wolves in the last 20 years?

How many more people live in idaho now than 20 years ago? How many people did you know 20 years ago that hunted more than 1 or maybe 2 states? We have more developed lands now than 20 years ago? How many people did you know 20 years ago that shot scopes with turrets? How many had a range finder? How many archery hunters were there 20 years ago? Their bows shoot better 20 years ago? How many hunters had the kind of clothing, optics, light weight gear, food options, fitness that are available now? How much more conifer encroachment has advanced in the last 20 years? How many application services were there 20 years ago? How many people carried a gps with onx loaded on it? How many scouting services 20 years ago? More or less outfitters? How many hunting web sites 20 years ago? More atv’s, razors, then or now? More miles of illegal atv trails now or 20 years ago.I could go on all day...

I believe one whole hell of a lot more has changed than just wolves.

 

[Rizzy]

Lions only kill 3% more cows than wolves? Is this significant?
Why did they leave out the percentage of calves bears kill, I thought that's why we have zones with 2nd bear tags.
The article strikes me as click bait, I would like to read the full research paper

 

[Ryan Avery]

The only thing that’s changed is wolves in the last 20 years?

How many more people live in idaho now than 20 years ago? How many people did you know 20 years ago that hunted more than 1 or maybe 2 states? We have more developed lands now than 20 years ago? How many people did you know 20 years ago that shot scopes with turrets? How many had a range finder? How many archery hunters were there 20 years ago? Their bows shoot better 20 years ago? How many hunters had the kind of clothing, optics, light weight gear, food options, fitness that are available now? How much more conifer encroachment has advanced in the last 20 years? How many application services were there 20 years ago? How many people carried a gps with onx loaded on it? How many scouting services 20 years ago? More or less outfitters? How many hunting web sites 20 years ago? More atv’s, razors, then or now? More miles of illegal atv trails now or 20 years ago.I could go on all day...

I believe one whole hell of a lot more has changed than just wolves.

So what happened in the Frank and the Selway Buzz? Was it all the people, cats, and four-wheelers? Those places should be full of elk and deer with all the fires they have and or the last 15 years. What happened in North Idaho where it’s to brushy and steep to have four-wheelers or long shots with bow or rifle. Have you hunted in any of these places?

With all these tech advancements the bull elk harvest percentages should be way up in Idaho... but they are not.

Wolves are not a problem in all of Idaho forests, but people should start recognizing that in some areas they are a huge problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[idahohikker]

1. Studies on emotional topics are subject to bias.
2. It’s not surprising that mountain lions kill a significant number of prey animals.
3. Add wolf predation to mountain lion predation and it can be pretty devastating, particularly if the wolf population is high.
4. It takes a lot more than one study to determine precise effects in a complex situation.
5. Wolves need to be heavily managed or their populations spiral out of control.