Monos vs. Lead. Which do you choose and why?

[Grundy53]

Does using lead bullets have a population level effect on raptors?

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[wind gypsy]

Didn't read all the pages but I swear @Newtosavage just likes starting threads that are obvious argument starters. What's the point of a 6.5 and copper vs lead? Maybe hop on over to the archery forum and start fixed vs mechanical thread #8,532. Never seen those topics bantered over before...

I've never killed an animal with a mono but have dicked around with a few of them. I'll likely use a cutting edge or hammer for MN whitetail hunting which is primarily inside 100 yards going forward. Don't know that i'm convinced one way or the other on lead risks but i know i'm not concerned with a 6.5 mono killing a whitetail effectively inside 100 yards.

For western hunting I don't see mono options that offer the BC and terminal performance I want at longer ranges, so its lead still for now.

 

[Tod osier]

Does using lead bullets have a population level effect on raptors?

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I love raptors. Sweet- two major regions in Arizona have over a 90% volunteer rate of using lead free ammunition and burying gut piles, along with all of California. What has changed in the raptors in Arizona and CA since doing so?

Very savvy (or cunning) question, which, of course, the answer to is unknown.

The study to answer that would be exceptionally complicated, take a long time and be very expensive (it would take at lease a decade and cost multiple millions in my estimation). To answer this question not only requires understanding of lead landscape, but all other factors that affect population, many of which are equally not completely understood at the population level - it just isn't going to happen until lead ammunition receives more scrutiny (is that what you want?). A population level study like that is akin the the to the many heart disease studies that try to link some factor and seem to end up contradicting other similar sturdies or end up with equivocal results. For lead and raptors, not only would be be exceedingly expensive, but would also have to be done many times (areas, species, etc...) to result in a good understanding.

 

[Rick M.]

Because you’re looking for a negative. There are no research studies that show lead doesn’t hurt raptors, because lead does hurt raptors. The question is if lead bullet fragments in game it is a serious contributor to raptor mortality?

I'm not, though. Really. I've just read enough of the available research out there regarding raptors and lead poisoning that it's just one more positive in the copper bullet column. It's not my primary reason for using copper. My primary reason is for the health of myself and my family. It's an easy concession for me.

Can you provide a study that shows a consummate reduction in lead level related death in raptors with the attending reduction in lead bullet use by hunters? Bthis should be easy as there has been enough time pass in enough different regions with mandatory lead free use that if lead fragments from bullets was the main cause of raptor mortality, or even a cause at all, there should be clear evidence from causes of mortality.

Again, are you able to show a study that proves that it hasn't? Because I'm not going to divulge the research that helped me come to my decision, and also dig up research to prove or disprove everyone's shower thoughts in this thread. The onus of backing up one's claim is on the individual making it. If you believe that the reduction of lead ammunition use in California and Arizona has done nothing to reduce raptor lead mortality, and that makes you feel more comfortable sticking with lead ammunition, that's your personal decision, and that's cool. But you shouldn't suggest that that's the case, and then ask someone else to disprove it with research. Come on, Form.

Which one are we actually talking about?

All of them. The OP asked "Mono vs. Lead and Why? It's the "Why" that's leading to different conversations, and that's completely fine. We can tackle each red herring in turn, it doesn't matter to me. It's just a conversation. It just peeves me when people use anecdotes as data that everyone else must conform to. That doesn't fly.

 

[Rick M.]

Does using lead bullets have a population level effect on raptors?

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Let me Google that for you, Grundy...

Poisoning caused by ingestion of spent lead (Pb) ammunition in food items is a common cause of death of raptors. However, there has been no previous attempt to assess the impact of lead poisoning on populations of raptors throughout Europe or examine how this relates to the prevalence of hunting. We used measurements of lead concentration in the liver from over 3000 raptors of 22 species found dead or dying in the wild in 13 countries and a lead poisoning threshold of 20 ppm (dry weight) to assess the proportion of these in which lead poisoning caused or contributed to death. The prevalence of lead poisoning as a cause of death of raptors varied substantially among European countries and was positively correlated across countries with the reported number of hunters per unit area. Ten species had a non-zero proportion of individuals with concentrations exceeding the lead poisoning threshold ranging between 0.3% and 16.5%. The estimated annual conditional death rate from lead poisoning for these ten species averaged 0.44% (range 0.06–0.85%). Scavenging species feeding regularly on carcasses of game animals,tended to have a high annual probability of death from lead poisoning. So too did some predators which only sometimes scavenge, but prey on frequently hunted birds, such as gamebirds, waterfowl and pigeons, which may contain ingested or embedded lead shot. Small-bodied predators had a low annual probability of death from lead poisoning. Modelling indicated that European populations of adult raptors of the ten focal species averaged 6.0% smaller (range 0.2–14.4%) than they would be without the effects of lead poisoning. A given rate of lead poisoning mortality resulted in greater expected population reductions for species with high annual survival rate and late age at first breeding.

Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969722011093?via=ihub

 

[35WhelenAI]

I like the well written post #186 above however is there truly any gray area in this that more details need to be involved in a study to prove what has already been proven? It's not good for those birds.

Folks choose what they need for the job at hand, however that makes it no less of an issue with respect to the impact. It's not an unintended consequence anymore, it is a deliberate result of deliberate choices we as hunters and sportsmen make.

The first time something happens it's an accident. The second time it's a coincidence. The third time it's a pattern. Beyond that it becomes reality.

Still waiting for the study that shows no adverse effects.. seems to be only crickets.

 

[S.Clancy]

You sir, are barking up the wrong proverbial tree. This is, after all, an internet forum, where carpenters are chemists and stay at home dads are MDs.

And everybody has a PhD in Wildlife Biology and Population Dynamics....

 

[Newtosavage]

Didn't read all the pages but I swear @Newtosavage just likes starting threads that are obvious argument starters. What's the point of a 6.5 and copper vs lead? Maybe hop on over to the archery forum and start fixed vs mechanical thread #8,532. Never seen those topics bantered over before...

I've never killed an animal with a mono but have dicked around with a few of them. I'll likely use a cutting edge or hammer for MN whitetail hunting which is primarily inside 100 yards going forward. Don't know that i'm convinced one way or the other on lead risks but i know i'm not concerned with a 6.5 mono killing a whitetail effectively inside 100 yards.

For western hunting I don't see mono options that offer the BC and terminal performance I want at longer ranges, so its lead still for now.

Sorry if my interest in learning offends you. Maybe just try scrolling on by?

 

[Newtosavage]

Let me Google that for you, Grundy...


Source: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0048969722011093?via=ihub

Oh so we trust science now?

 

[JohnB]

My buddy shot a deer last month and we had to leave it overnight. The next morning by 8 there were already 2 golden eagles on it. I've also had an eagle pick up a chukar I shot before I could get to it. I'm not sure if lead has a population wide effect but I figure I can control my actions there. Plus I don't have a windmill in my yard that I can remove.

 

[Tod osier]

It's not good for those birds.

Yes, absolutely no gray area at the individual level looking at a number of species using a number of approaches.

 

[S.Clancy]

My buddy shot a deer last month and we had to leave it overnight. The next morning by 8 there were already 2 golden eagles on it. I've also hand an eagle pick up a chukar I shot before I could get to it. I'm not sure if lead has a population wide effect but I figure I can control my actions there. Plus I don't have a windmill in yard that I can remove.

We left my bull this year ~5 hrs (first load and return trip), there were 3 huge golden eagles on that carcass. They had stripped the rib meat and got into the cavity on the up side. Thankfully we pulled the remaining quarters into a thicket. Those birds can hog down meat in a hurry.

 

[BjornF16]

I’ve used both, but currently using lead based bullets.

I don’t buy into the lead tainted meat propaganda. First, most lead poisoning occurs from organic based lead and aerosolized lead. Lead used in bullets is inorganic and stable. It gets passed through pretty quick.

This article written by a guy who has been using monos since 2009 yet still has varying and elevated lead levels…why? Other factors. Read for yourself

Health Risks of Lead in Venison: Gray Toxin or Red Herring? | Deer & Deer Hunting

Find out if bird biologists' concerns about the effects of lead in venison on human health are legitimate or just an effort to save birds.

www.deeranddeerhunting.com

 

[Rick M.]

Funny how data from scientists, DNRs, and university departments are "propaganda", but an article from some dude on a hunting site is your preferred single source of truth.

 

[Rick M.]

The confirmation bias is overwhelming.

 

[Balderdash]

I’ve used both, but currently using lead based bullets.

I don’t buy into the lead tainted meat propaganda. First, most lead poisoning occurs from organic based lead and aerosolized lead. Lead used in bullets is inorganic and stable. It gets passed through pretty quick.

This article written by a guy who has been using monos since 2009 yet still has varying and elevated lead levels…why? Other factors. Read for yourself

Health Risks of Lead in Venison: Gray Toxin or Red Herring? | Deer & Deer Hunting

Find out if bird biologists' concerns about the effects of lead in venison on human health are legitimate or just an effort to save birds.

www.deeranddeerhunting.com

The following lives in the unexplained anecdote side, so FWIW . . . A friend of mine is an active sportsman. He's always hunting or fishing. Somehow he had his lead levels tested and they were found to be elevated. He was advised to switch to non lead sinkers and copper bullets, which he did. It's been a few years, and his lead levels haven't dropped appreciably. His house is less than 10 years old and he's managed all other factors, so he's not sure what can be done, and it seems his medical care staff are unable to explain where it's coming from.

On the animal testing side - we've put cameras on gut piles in the past. Generally get a lot of crows and bobcats. Have gotten bears, fishers, eagles, vultures, etc, but crows and bobcats are just about a given. To this end I'm going to send some emails to see if these specific animal populations have been studied for lead levels locally. In a lot of areas of my state (WI) the deer harvest is significantly higher and more concentrated than in many western states, which you'd think would effectuate more opportunities for lead transfer through carion consumption. And while I don't have any empirical numbers to back it up, I'd say that copper bullet use is relatively low hereabouts.

And while we're at it, seems I've read about copper toxicity somewhere along the line while researching a plumbing project. Anyone care to weigh in on that and how how it could be interrelated to eating game killed with copper?

 

[Rick M.]

To this end I'm going to send some emails to see if these specific animal populations have been studied for lead levels locally.

I think this is a great idea, actually. I'd be interested in what you find out, particularly since we have a decent amount of grouse hunting in WI and MN.

 

[BjornF16]

Funny how data from scientists, DNRs, and university departments are "propaganda", but an article from some dude on a hunting site is your preferred single source of truth.

First, I didn’t claim this is my only source of information.

Second, universities and scientists routinely propagate misinformation and poor conclusions from not following rigid scientific method.

There are lies, damn lies and statistics.

 

[Formidilosus]

Again, are you able to show a study that proves that it hasn't? Because I'm not going to divulge the research that helped me come to my decision, and also dig up research to prove or disprove everyone's shower thoughts in this thread. The onus of backing up one's claim is on the individual making it. If you believe that the reduction of lead ammunition use in California and Arizona has done nothing to reduce raptor lead mortality, and that makes you feel more comfortable sticking with lead ammunition, that's your personal decision, and that's cool. But you shouldn't suggest that that's the case, and then ask someone else to disprove it with research. Come on, Form.

What? Rich, you have it backwards. You, and the “science” community are saying that it’s lead bullet fragments that are causing raptor mortality, it’s on you to show that it is the case. That’s how this works. The onus is on the person saying something exists.

I have read every study you linked to, so I’ll answer it- no, there has been no rise in California condor numbers, nor any reduction in the amount of blood lead levels of California condors after the lead ban. The lead ban for California condors has been a complete failure as it was laid out. The Kaibab lead free effort has also been a failure at reducing blood lead levels in raptors.

This is my problem with this subject- the best source of information, and the one that started the whole thing, has not shown to prove a reduction in raptor blood lead levels despite a total ban- that means mostly likely, it isn’t lead bullet fragments. So if we actually care about raptors, then we need to stop beating the door of an empty house. Real science would do that, the fact that they aren’t is the problem.

And since I brought it up, these are the first graphs that show up in google (that are also in the studies you linked too) of the causes of raptor mortality-








Ignoring that raptor numbers have sky rocketed since the 70’s, if we really care about raptors, then we need to get rid of cars, electricity, and rat poison and stop obscuring the conversation with something that has a trivial, to no effect whatsoever.

 

[h2so4]

I'll make an offer to anyone who is on the fence about monos and has an open mind.
I'll send you a box of Black Hills 6.5cm 130gr Dual Performance (Controlled Chaos, Machined Copper Bullet) and no cost. If you don't mind covering shipping, that'd be cool, but not required. I only have a few boxes, so it is a limited offer. Prefer it go to a meme lord, if possible.

As seen in the XLR Blog Post:

Choosing the Correct Ammo for a Hunting Rifle

Choosing the correct ammo for a hunting rifle is crucial for precision and safety. Unlock the secrets to perfect ammo pairing today!

xlrindustries.com

edit: @fwafwow I saw your meme about GMX sponsorship. LOL.