Monos vs. Lead. Which do you choose and why?

[Lawnboi]

I hate to imagine the number of lead jigs and sinkers that are eaten by eagles around my house. They are everywhere.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Good point on sinkers and lead head jigs. More so water fowl such as loons, where it has been suggested as a leading cause of death according to studies. It contributes to raptor poisoning (not to the extent as lead from shooting as best I can see, but legit none-the-less) that eat fish that have ingested lead.

 

[Lawnboi]

Good point on sinkers and lead head jigs. More so water fowl such as loons, where it is the leading cause of death. However it contributes to raptor poisoning (not to the extent as lead from shooting as best I can see, but legit none-the-less) that eat fish that have ingested lead.

Around here eagles eat fish. I can go out on about any lake and if there is a dead fish on the surface, or on the ice, chances are it won’t be for long. Iv had eagles grab fish less than 10 feet away from me and loons circling the boat waiting for a dead fish.

No doubt other animals eat them too, but eagles and loons hammer the dead fish.

On the other side, I can put a carcass in my woods and not see a raptor on it at all before it’s gone, which takes only a few days.

 

[Newtosavage]

The whatabout crowd is strong tonight.

 

[Billy Goat]

Man, no wonder those guys got in so much trouble loading those fish up with sinkers.

Those fish end up carcasses with lead in them, then scavengers consume the meat and the lead.



In all seriousness, I don't think sinkers are the problem, unless something is actually eating them. Ducks consumed lead shot trying to get grit, I don't remember how prevalent toxicity was. I had looked it up at one time, but it varied greatly based on the area.

I don't have any idea how many raptors or scavengers consume lead, but I can pretty well bet they don't go digging it up from the hillside to consume it. Kinda like hair on my food, I don't seek it out, but damn if it doesn't get in there some. I don't flip over it tho. Kinda like shot I find in turkey and dove.

 

[fwafwow]

I Kinda like hair on my food, I don't seek it out, but damn if it doesn't get in there some. I don't flip over it tho. Kinda like shot I find in turkey and dove.

Does your reaction vary depending on the length and/or whether they are matte - or shiny?

 

[Billy Goat]

Does your reaction vary depending on the length and/or whether they are matte - or shiny?

More about how curly they are, those are the ones that concern me more.

 

[fwafwow]

More about how curly they are, those are the ones that concern me more.

True. I forgot that characteristic

 

[Rick M.]

The whatabout crowd is strong tonight.

Not just whataboutism, but straight up armchair scientists. "I highly doubt x is the cause of z... " and "well I do this and have never witnessed that..." and "I'm sure x kills more than z..." and "I did this and never saw that"

Guys... that ain't science. Those are shower thoughts and anecdotes.

There's no problem with someone saying "I don't really care about lead, I just use what I've always used" or "I like copper" or "I don't really care about raptors".

I also don't think this thread has "gotten ugly" or "off the rails". It's just that some have decided to be dismissive / snarky and then seem to become serious and offended when challenged or asked to elaborate.

I swear hunters may just be the most thinned-skinned creatures alive. One little scratch and it's a shambles.

 

[Formidilosus]

I also don't think this thread has "gotten ugly" or "off the rails". It's just that some have decided to be dismissive / snarky and then seem to become serious and offended when challenged or asked to elaborate.

Dismissive? Or is it that people are tired of having agendas shoved down their throat without a second of critical thinking?


I love raptors. Sweet- two major regions in Arizona have over a 90% volunteer rate of using lead free ammunition and burying gut piles, along with all of California. What has changed in the raptors in Arizona and CA since doing so?

I swear hunters may just be the most thinned-skinned creatures alive. One little scratch and it's a shambles.

If you care about raptors, why wouldn’t you push to eliminate the things that cause the highest mortality rate among them? And before you pull a straw man: I can almost guarantee you I have put more time and money into raptors at multiple points in my life than anyone in this thread except one-unless your a falconer.

 

[Newtosavage]

Dismissive? Or is it that people are tired of having agendas shoved down their throat without a second of critical thinking?


I love raptors. Sweet- two major regions in Arizona have over a 90% volunteer rate of using lead free ammunition and burying gut piles, along with all of California. What has changed in the raptors in Arizona and CA since doing so?







If you care about raptors, why wouldn’t you push to eliminate the things that cause the highest mortality rate among them? And before you pull a straw man: I can almost guarantee you I have put more time and money into raptors at multiple points in my life than anyone in this thread- unless your a falconer.

Probably not “anyone “ but if it makes you feel better…

 

[prm]

Well, shot my deer with lead this year, but most things over the last 10 years with copper. I cannot say I see a meaningful difference in how quickly they die. Certainly zero difference in whether they die. I also don’t shoot very long distances. Probably the start of a data point in there. In my small data set, it sure seems critters hit with a .338 die a little faster than those hit with a .264. But again, zero difference in whether they die.
Thinking about the lead thing, it occurred to me the meat I left behind on the mule deer was that near the wound channels. Lots of black birds were feasting on that shortly after we left. Not worried about the meat I took, but IF lead is not good for birds, a couple 140 VLDs of lead probably wasn't the healthiest.

 

[Rick M.]

Dismissive?

Yes. It's dismissive to make statements that assert there's no real issue or negative relationship between raptors and lead, or humans and lead, while providing absolutely no data or research of their own, yet dismissing data / research provided from multiple external sources. Again, it's one thing to have an opinion that raptors / condors aren't being killed via lead poisoning, or that lead is good for humans, but it's altogether different to assert it as fact without any foundational support. The "just trust me" system in a nonstarter for me.

What has changed in the raptors in Arizona and CA since doing so?

I don't know, but I'd love to read some data if you've got it. Hopefully you're not about to tell me that it's made zero difference, provide no data / research supporting it, and expect me to absorb it as fact?

If you care about raptors, why wouldn’t you push to eliminate the things that cause the highest mortality rate among them?

Enlighten me. Please.

And before you pull a straw man:

What straw man? You're the one positing questions as a way to prove a point. I'm literally the only single person in this thread that has posted any legitimate data... everyone that has come out against it has been anecdotal or whataboutist. Absolutely nothing of substance.

Form, I would absolutely love to read over any research you've been a part of or are aware of that may shed light on both human / lead interaction as well as raptor / lead or raptor / turbine or raptor / lawn gnomes interactions that may further educate me on the subject. However, and with all do respect, when all you say is "I've been involved with... " and "I've heard it stated by x..." it's going to be difficult to take you seriously. I hope that's understandable.

Please, for the love of god, show me some data. Otherwise, what I've presented is all we've got, regardless of the holes you may want to poke in it. You don't trust multiple DNRs? Multiple separate university departments across several continents? All coming to the same conclusions with visual references and statistical data? Well, then maybe truth just isn't what you're after.

 

[Rick M.]

Also, I stated in my initial post that I feel like everyone should do what makes them happy, and that I'm against forced lead bans. So there's no "forced agenda" coming from me.

I stated that I used copper, why I used copper (as the OP requested), and provided the data that helped me come to that conclusion - in the off chance that someone else may find it useful. I have no control over the folks that felt the need to go on the offensive .

But i will stand behind what I used to come to my personal conclusions, and am totally open to reading over anyone's research to the contrary. Simply post it.

 

[Formidilosus]

Yes. It's dismissive to make statements that assert there's no real issue or negative relationship between raptors and lead, or humans and lead, while providing absolutely no data or research of their own, yet dismissing data / research provided from multiple external sources. Again, it's one thing to have an opinion that raptors / condors aren't being killed via lead poisoning, or that lead is good for humans, but it's altogether different to assert it as fact without any foundational support. The "just trust me" system in a nonstarter for me.

Because you’re looking for a negative. There are no research studies that show lead doesn’t hurt raptors, because lead does hurt raptors. The question is if lead bullet fragments in game it is a serious contributor to raptor mortality?

Can you provide a study that shows a consummate reduction in lead level related death in raptors with the attending reduction in lead bullet use by hunters? Bthis should be easy as there has been enough time pass in enough different regions with mandatory lead free use that if lead fragments from bullets was the main cause of raptor mortality, or even a cause at all, there should be clear evidence from causes of mortality.


Also, there seems to be three conversations happening-

1). Do copper bullets work as well as lead?

2). Does shooting game with lead bullets pose a serious threat to human health from consumption?

3). Does lead fragments, from shot game cause a serious risk to raptors?


Which one are we actually talking about?

 

[Fartrell Cluggins]

Has there been any science that shows raptors are dying as a result of lead contamination from ammo? Has there been any science that shows raptor populations have increased after lead was banned? If so, has that science identified elimination of lead as the reason?

 

[35WhelenAI]

For seeking information, Google works wonders. Wanting to be objective I've used that marvel of modern times. There isn't a study showing lead is not poisoning raptors, which means the remaining ones (all of them) show the ill effects. Direct cause and effect of raptors becoming incapacitated and not able to function. Which leads to the conclusion they die. Of course there are natural reasons for mortality however that's the way it should be. This isn't like hunting deer that overpopulate much of the country and need to be taken to keep healthy numbers.

Google.

 

[Balderdash]

I hate to imagine the number of lead jigs and sinkers that are eaten by eagles around my house. They are everywhere.

Imagine all the animals that feed off lake Erie Walleyes.

 

[Newtosavage]

That's like saying people are going to die anyway so why even acknowledge that smoking is unhealthy? LOL

 

[Tod osier]

That's like saying people are going to die anyway so why even acknowledge that smoking is unhealthy? LOL

Or if your neighbor litters more than you do, it is OK to litter?