Monos vs. Lead. Which do you choose and why?

[Pony Soldier]

Effect on barrels?

 

[z987k]

Effect on barrels?

Haha, I'm sure it'd not be friendly to the steel.

 

[Pony Soldier]

That was my guess and the fool applying it.

 

[fwafwow]

I don’t want to derail this thread topic - but you’re way off base on statins adding one more day off life.

The only thing I do better than memes is derailing a thread topic.

Pm me if you want to throw down so this stays on topic

I appreciate the offline discussion. I'm not suggesting you agree with the update below, but I'm conceding my above post about statins adding only one day to your life was wrong. It appears it's the matter of some debate:

• ~3-4 days - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4593138/
• ~13 days over 5 years - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bcpt.13485
• I believe the above are averages - some studies referenced in the above articles subtly listed "-5" or "-10" as the number of days lives were "extended".
• I expect there are other meta studies, and if the numbers were dramatically different, I'd love to see them

 

[Billy Goat]

The only thing I do better than memes is derailing a thread topic.

I appreciate the offline discussion. I'm not suggesting you agree with the update below, but I'm conceding my above post about statins adding only one day to your life was wrong. It appears it's the matter of some debate:

• ~3-4 days - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4593138/
• ~13 days over 5 years - https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/bcpt.13485
• I believe the above are averages - some studies referenced in the above articles subtly listed "-5" or "-10" as the number of days lives were "extended".
• I expect there are other meta studies, and if the numbers were dramatically different, I'd love to see them

But which days do you loose/gain?

Does it come out of the middle or the end?

If it's days of me out of my mind, someone cleaning me after I just defecated myself again, don't know that I need those days.

 

[9.1]

I use lead because 200gr .358 TTSXs haven't been available for years.

 

[Unckebob]

I wonder how cast gold bullets would work. It would sure keep you from spraying the hillside in despiration.

Goldfinger?

 

[fwafwow]

But which days do you loose/gain?

Does it come out of the middle or the end?

If it's days of me out of my mind, someone cleaning me after I just defecated myself again, don't know that I need those days.

I would expect the end. I’m working on a formula to convert to lost (or additional) meme opportunities

 

[35WhelenAI]

Lead! And I prefer match bullets

IME animals shot with Monos stay on their feet longer than animals shot with Match bullets.

When reading studies, always look for the original.

If you are concerned about the Raptors, you should be more concerned about those god-awful windmills and electric cars, not your little lead bullets.

Ryan Avery (Admin), with respect, is this what the forum supports, to brush aside legitimate viewpoints that are also based on proof?

IME, 30 years of mono's, those animals from pronghorn, muley's, whitetails and elk left their feet pretty well.

There is no compromise on lesser of evils to be had, IMO in this discussion. That's deflecting the discussion. There is unequivocal proof both wind turbines and lead are deadly to raptors. I am not aware of anyone here having proof to the contrary now that time has gone by and left original studies for dead.

Lol, looking at original studies would lead one to believe that smoking was quite possibly safe. It was seen to be harmful half a century before it was truly acknowledged based on proof. No dice on that.

 

[Newtosavage]

IME animals shot with Monos stay on their feet longer than animals shot with Match bullets.

I've seen this with TTSX's as well. But not with Hammers. Both deer I shot with Hammers were DRT.

If you are concerned about the Raptors, you should be more concerned about those god-awful windmills and electric cars, not your little lead bullets.

Why can't we be concerned about both? It's not a binary choice.

 

[Leaf Litter]

Whichever shoots best in the gun I'm using while still offering the terminal performance i need at desired range. Anybody who limits themselves to one or the other is generally doing so because they refuse to view the topic objectively.

Copper seems to be the direction I go for large game. Lead for smaller game and plinking/target.

 

[Rick M.]

Ryan Avery (Admin), with respect, is this what the forum supports, to brush aside legitimate viewpoints that are also based on proof?

IME, 30 years of mono's, those animals from pronghorn, muley's, whitetails and elk left their feet pretty well.

There is no compromise on lesser of evils to be had, IMO in this discussion. That's deflecting the discussion. There is unequivocal proof both wind turbines and lead are deadly to raptors. I am not aware of anyone here having proof to the contrary now that time has gone by and left original studies for dead.

Lol, looking at original studies would lead one to believe that smoking was quite possibly safe. It was seen to be harmful half a century before it was truly acknowledged based on proof. No dice on that.

I couldn't agree more. I find it disingenuous to point out wind turbines and electric cars as culprits while ignoring the heaps of research surrounding lead poisoning. The issues aren't mutually exclusive. It's a head-in-the-sand version of whataboutism.

It's a slippery slope when one begins to cherry-pick which issues are real or imagined based on which issues may affect them personally. "I hunt with lead, so that's not what's killing birds", or "I'm a turbine technician, so it can't be wind turbines killing birds - look over there at the lead and electric cars". I understand that it can be difficult to be objective though. It's human. But it's not the way.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Ryan Avery (Admin), with respect, is this what the forum supports, to brush aside legitimate viewpoints that are also based on proof?

IME, 30 years of mono's, those animals from pronghorn, muley's, whitetails and elk left their feet pretty well.

There is no compromise on lesser of evils to be had, IMO in this discussion. That's deflecting the discussion. There is unequivocal proof both wind turbines and lead are deadly to raptors. I am not aware of anyone here having proof to the contrary now that time has gone by and left original studies for dead.

Lol, looking at original studies would lead one to believe that smoking was quite possibly safe. It was seen to be harmful half a century before it was truly acknowledged based on proof. No dice on that.

Where did I say this is what Rokslide Supports? This is my opinion. Last I checked, this was a thread full of opinions with a few facts sprinkled in.

I will be honest: Raptors or lead poisoning don't even enter my mind when selecting a hunting bullet. I want the best tool for the job. From what I have read, Very few birds die from lead, but many die from windmills. If this is untrue, point me to the article I will read it. I emailed the North American Non-Lead partnership yesterday to clarify something they said in an article.

Don't know where you have been the last two years, but everything is politically motivated. So when I say make sure it's the original study, it means to make sure it's not a cherry-picked version of the study posted up on a fake news site. You should also find out who paid for the study.

In my 30+ years of hunting, it didn't take long to see mono's were inferior to lead.

 

[Colby]

I have not read the whole thread, I only shoot match grade lead bullets, better BC’s and terminal performance. I’m all for people shooting what they they want to and dead against any additional rules on most anything we do.
I say all this as I sit in Oregon where we have just out-Californiad California with our cool new gun laws.

 

[JGRaider]

Where did I say this is what Rokslide Supports? This is my opinion. Last I checked, this was a thread full of opinions with a few facts sprinkled in.

I will be honest: Raptors or lead poisoning don't even enter my mind when selecting a hunting bullet. I want the best tool for the job. From what I have read, Very few birds die from lead, but many die from windmills. If this is untrue, point me to the article I will read it. I emailed the North American Non-Lead partnership yesterday to clarify something they said in an article.

Don't know where you have been the last two years, but everything is politically motivated. So when I say make sure it's the original study, it means to make sure it's not a cherry-picked version of the study posted up on a fake news site. You should also find out who paid for the study.

In my 30+ years of hunting, it didn't take long to see mono's were inferior to lead.

Amen, Amen, and Amen. There's an outdoor writer over on 24HCF that's been in the business over 40 years. He has journals full of kill data including bullets, approx impact velocities, how far game ran, etc with most every bullet know to mankind.....multiples upon multiples of samples of each. His conclusion is the same......game taken with monos tends to go farther than game taken with C&C's, bonded bullets etc. The more frangible the bullet, the quicker it tends to kill.

We guided hunters for whitetails, muleys, antelope, and aoudad for over 15 years and 150 hunters, and I've personally killed/culled almost 400 head of game myself. I've come to the same conclusion.

 

[Rick M.]

There are wildlife biologists / ecologists that specialize in raptors. It's their literal career to study raptors. Sometimes they form groups that attempt to protect / preserve the animal in peril that they've specialized their career in. If it's said group that collects a bunch of money to request further research to be done by a university, is that what we're considering "political"? Because if we are just going to write off any research funded by avian interest groups, then it's a non-starter. I mean... who the hell else is going to fund such research, if not a raptor interest group? Shell? JP Morgan? The NRA? I seriously don't understand this argument. The research is still sound. I don't think "everything's political" these days as much as people attempt to make everything political.

 

[ljalberta]

Maybe another thread should be started to debate politics and funding of research projects? I anticipate nothing going off the rails there.

 

[Justin Crossley]

All I can picture as I read this thread is dead game animals littering the countryside chock full of lead. Otherwise, how in the world would all these raptors be dying from lead? Give me a break. For the record, I'm not saying I believe lead has never killed a raptor. I just highly doubt it's significant enough even to justify this conversation.

I don't think I'm a head-in-the-sand type of person at all, but I try to consider things with common sense.

Common sense tells me that way more raptors are likely killed by cars, windmills, and getting tangled in things than lead poisoning. Maybe I'm completely wrong.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Maybe another thread should be started to debate politics and funding of research projects? I anticipate nothing going off the rails there.

It's been done. Worked out about as well as you think.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Whichever shoots best in the gun I'm using while still offering the terminal performance i need at desired range. Anybody who limits themselves to one or the other is generally doing so because they refuse to view the topic objectively.

Copper seems to be the direction I go for large game. Lead for smaller game and plinking/target.

I can appreciate your post. However, making one's choice of lead or not based on shooting best and/or terminal performance is not refusing to view things objectively. The preponderance of data is very objective with respect to what is deadly to raptors and other wildlife that feed on carcasses that have lead remnants. Almost 50% raptors with chronic lead poisoning and almost 30% with acute lead poisoning leans heavily to the objective side of things.

Now that it is at the forefront and very factual a choice can be made. Folks make their choice and by doing so, de-facto acknowledge or ignore said facts.

With respect to post #156 above, I look forward to knowing the clarification asked to the Non-lead Partnership for and their response. As well, a study (just one) showing lead from carcasses and lost game is not harmful to raptors would be appropriate at this time as that ties well with facts to consider when choosing monos vs lead.