Lead in Meat Discussion

[KenLee]

????
Copper bullets create DRT animals whenever I use them. Sounds like operator error if your experience is different.

Alright Boss, how close are you shooting those flopping animals ?

I'm a half ass shooter on paper and game. I shoot game exactly the same as u shoot paper. Only highlights are that I dont get rattled and also kill em 60 minutes past sunset and when they are running wide ass open. I'll readily admit to my abilities.

 

[QuackAttack]

https://www.suttoncenter.org/conser...oisoning-eagles/unintentional-lead-poisoning/

https://www.researchgate.net/figure...ing-lead-based-bullets-a-A-roe_fig1_326321990


The links have x ray images showing lead frag radiating outward from the original wound. This is worse with the match style bullets. It’s why I don’t like lead on animals I will eat.

 

[HingleMcCringleberry]

It should stay a personal decision. That's my point. Shoot what you want. I will do the same.

 

[johnnycake]

Alright Boss, how close are you shooting those flopping animals ?

I'm a half ass shooter on paper and game. Only highlights are that I dont get rattled and also kill em 60 minutes past sunset and when they are running wide ass open. I'll readily admit to my abilities.

Well let's see, here are some of my DRTs from copper over the last several years.

30 feet on this bull


125 yards on this bull


~300-350 yards on my 2 of these caribou


My daughter's cow at 227 yards


This year's bull at ~225 yards (had to back away and climb a hill to have a shooting lane)


To sum up. DRT using copper on animals ranging from 120-1200lbs live weight at ranges from 30 feet to ~350 yards. The only thing that really matters in making an animal die in their tracks is putting the bullet in the right spot. My then 9 year old understood that well.

 

[KenLee]

Well let's see, here are some of my DRTs from copper over the last several years.

30 feet on this bull
View attachment 660379

125 yards on this bull
View attachment 660356

~300-350 yards on my 2 of these caribou
View attachment 660385

My daughter's cow at 227 yards
View attachment 660358

This year's bull at ~225 yards (had to back away and climb a hill to have a shooting lane)
View attachment 660360

To sum up. DRT using copper on animals ranging from 120-1200lbs live weight at ranges from 30 feet to ~350 yards. The only thing that really matters in making an animal die in their tracks is putting the bullet in the right spot. My then 9 year old understood that well.

 

[KenLee]

Nice shooting and spectacular animals!
I can tell you from 45 years of experience shooting whitetails through the heart that 50% of them shot with traditional cup and core bullets and copper bullets make a death run of 40-100 yards. Heart shots or double lung with a splatter bullet and 85% fall over dead. 99% when shot with a 3000fps splatter bullet at least 150 gr.
I reckon thicker hide and thicker bodies make a difference.
How many of those longer kills were with a 450 Bushmaster, which was my comment you originally replied to?

 

[johnnycake]

Nice shooting and spectacular animals!
I can tell you from 45 years of experience shooting whitetails through the heart that 50% of them shot with traditional cup and core bullets and copper bullets make a death run of 40-100 yards. Heart shots or double lung with a splatter bullet and 85% fall over dead. 99% when shot with a 3000fps splatter bullet at least 150 gr.
I reckon thicker hide and thicker bodies make a difference.
How many of those longer kills were with a 450 Bushmaster, which was my comment you originally replied to?

I've killed plenty of whitetails, muleys, elk, and pronghorn over the years with lead and with copper using .270 and .300 Weatherby Mag. As long as the bullet is in the right place, they all tip over. When they don't, it's because the bullet didn't end up exactly where it should have.

Move the goalposts all you want, but the fact remains that shot placement and not bullet type, material, or caliber is what results in quick kills. Also, you actually responded to me first--I replied to EastHumboldt. And your post #147 says nothing about caliber. Now, I'm not saying you are experiencing memory confusion due to increased lead in your diet over the years compared to most folks, but, maybe I'm not not saying that either

 

[KenLee]

I've killed plenty of whitetails, muleys, elk, and pronghorn over the years with lead and with copper using .270 and .300 Weatherby Mag. Was long as the bullet is in the right place, they all tip over. When they don't, it's because the bullet didn't end up exactly where it should have.

Move the goalposts all you want, but the fact remains that shot placement and not bullet type, material, or caliber is what results in quick kills. Also, you actually responded to me first--I replied to EastHumboldt. And your post #147 says nothing about caliber. Now, I'm not saying you are experiencing memory confusion due to increased lead in your diet over the years compared to most folks, but, maybe I'm not not saying that either

270 and 300 weatherby are rockets compared to 450 BM speed

 

[johnnycake]

270 and 300 weatherby are rockets compared to 450 BM speed

I've killed plenty of deer and elk with .50 cal muzzleloaders pushing 300gr copper sabots at ~1200fps too and funny enough, when I poke the hole in the right place the critter dropped dead in its tracks.

You do you, by all means. But don't kid yourself that lead bullets kill better than copper. They really don't.

 

[KenLee]

I've killed plenty of whitetails, muleys, elk, and pronghorn over the years with lead and with copper using .270 and .300 Weatherby Mag. As long as the bullet is in the right place, they all tip over. When they don't, it's because the bullet didn't end up exactly where it should have.

Move the goalposts all you want, but the fact remains that shot placement and not bullet type, material, or caliber is what results in quick kills. Also, you actually responded to me first--I replied to EastHumboldt. And your post #147 says nothing about caliber. Now, I'm not saying you are experiencing memory confusion due to increased lead in your diet over the years compared to most folks, but, maybe I'm not not saying that either

I'm not saying TTSX are not good bullets when used catering to their strengths. I have a micro midas 7mm-08 that probably 30 kids and newbie females have killed deer with 120 gr TTSX. I make sure they don't shoot over 200 yards. I want newbies to make 2 holes, cause I have to find their deer.

 

[johnnycake]

I'm not saying TTSX are not good bullets when used catering to their strengths. I have a micro midas 7mm-08 that probably 30 kids and newbie females have killed deer with 120 gr TTSX. I make sure they don't shoot over 200 yards. I want newbies to make 2 holes, cause I have to find their deer.

Looking back through the thread, you definitely have your responses to me confused with your responses/discussion with other people on here.

But like I've said consistently, and like my dad taught me and his dad taught him: put the bullet in the right spot and nothing else matters. Teach the kids to put one in the lungs through the rib cage and you'll get pass throughs almost always, but you'll also usually have to track it a ways. Teach them to blow up the heart on a calm animal and you'll rarely have to look more than a few yards for the body. Teach them to break the neck at the base of the skull when the animal and conditions are right and you'll find the animal where it was when they pulled the trigger. Worked for me. Worked for my newbie wife. Worked for my daughter. Ounce of prevention vs pound of cure and all that.

But shit happens. That's why I train my dogs to blood track. Haven't needed it for myself or for my kids yet, but I've got plenty of buddies and acquaintances that have been happy to see Ava and I walk up.

 

[KenLee]

Looking back through the thread, you definitely have your responses to me confused with your responses/discussion with other people on here.

But like I've said consistently, and like my dad taught me and his dad taught him: put the bullet in the right spot and nothing else matters. Teach the kids to put one in the lungs through the rib cage and you'll get pass throughs almost always, but you'll also usually have to track it a ways. Teach them to blow up the heart on a calm animal and you'll rarely have to look more than a few yards for the body. Teach them to break the neck at the base of the skull when the animal and conditions are right and you'll find the animal where it was when they pulled the trigger. Worked for me. Worked for my newbie wife. Worked for my daughter. Ounce of prevention vs pound of cure and all that.

But shit happens. That's why I train my dogs to blood track. Haven't needed it for myself or for my kids yet, but I've got plenty of buddies and acquaintances that have been happy to see Ava and I walk up.

You are correct. I've been internet loafing while cooking pig for 20 people.
Bottom line with copper bullets is that they need plenty of speed if not put in precisely the right spot.

 

[johnnycake]

You are correct. I've been internet loafing while cooking pig for 20 people.
Bottom line with copper bullets is that they need plenty of speed if not put in precisely the right spot.

I still disagree, but as time slows again and again, the Internet is not a place people go to change their deeply helps opinions, even if they aren't grounded in reality.

My muzzleloader experience was that copper sabots still did plenty of damage and dropped animals in their tracks (whether it was a yearling doe deer or giant cow elk) despite muzzle velocities around 1200fps---way below your 450 bushmaster. There might have even been a spike elk dropped with an accidental shot to his hip that I just plain screwed up. That slow copper sabot at ~100 yards still put a hole in his hip big enough for both my fists on the exit. Would it have been any different in the end result with lead? Probably would have had a fair bit more meat loss due to bloodshot damage from fragmentation, but the elk still would've died all the same.

 

[KenLee]

I still disagree, but as time slows again and again, the Internet is not a place people go to change their deeply helps opinions, even if they aren't grounded in reality.

My muzzleloader experience was that copper sabots still did plenty of damage and dropped animals in their tracks (whether it was a yearling doe deer or giant cow elk) despite muzzle velocities around 1200fps---way below your 450 bushmaster. There might have even been a spike elk dropped with an accidental shot to his hip that I just plain screwed up. That slow copper sabot at ~100 yards still put a hole in his hip big enough for both my fists on the exit. Would it have been any different in the end result with lead? Probably would have had a fair bit more meat loss due to bloodshot damage from fragmentation, but the elk still would've died all the same.

Extremely heavy bullet weight goes a long way to putting em down. Hitting bone does also.
I think the added resistance of the bigger and thicker hide of the elk also helps with expansion.
I just have lil critters close to me

 

[johnnycake]

Extremely heavy bullet weight goes a long way to putting em down.
I think the added resistance of the bigger and thicker hide of the elk also helps with expansion.
I just have lil critters close to me

I really don't think that matters much in the end. Little 100lbs yearling does on muzzleloader hunts in corn fields had just as big of wound channels if I hit them in the actual shoulder. I swear you could've fit your arm through one of them I shot as a teenager. But if you slip the sabot in the ribs you'd have two relatively small holes on either side of the deer, and depending on if you got the heart it was drt or just lungs then you had to track it a bit. I'm very sure that's all the same because we on more than one occasion had one tag holder using sabots and an inline and another using round balls and a flintlock style muzzleloader. Shot placement determined tracking.

 

[KenLee]

Looking back through the thread, you definitely have your responses to me confused with your responses/discussion with other people on here.

But like I've said consistently, and like my dad taught me and his dad taught him: put the bullet in the right spot and nothing else matters. Teach the kids to put one in the lungs through the rib cage and you'll get pass throughs almost always, but you'll also usually have to track it a ways. Teach them to blow up the heart on a calm animal and you'll rarely have to look more than a few yards for the body. Teach them to break the neck at the base of the skull when the animal and conditions are right and you'll find the animal where it was when they pulled the trigger. Worked for me. Worked for my newbie wife. Worked for my daughter. Ounce of prevention vs pound of cure and all that.

But shit happens. That's why I train my dogs to blood track. Haven't needed it for myself or for my kids yet, but I've got plenty of buddies and acquaintances that have been happy to see Ava and I walk up.

I usually shoot base of the neck on good bucks on the river where I carry a 45-70. Shoot em broadside with 325 gr Hornady ftx and they spin a quarter turn on their way straight down. A few yards matters there. I don't want to fish for them.

 

[johnnycake]

I usually shoot base of the neck on good bucks on the river where I carry a 45-70. Shoot em broadside with 325 gr Hornady ftx and they spin a quarter turn on their way straight down. A few yards matters there. I don't want to fish for them.

And I guarantee if you changed the bullet you used from lead to copper it will make zero difference

 

[KenLee]

And I guarantee if you changed the bullet you used from lead to copper it will make zero difference

Probably not with a projectile that big with same placement

 

[Pharmseller]

I don’t want to read all nine pages so I’m asking for the Cliff’s Notes version.




P

 

[KenLee]

I don’t want to read all nine pages so I’m asking for the Cliff’s Notes version.

I can't shoot. @johnnycake loves copper.