Fragmenting bullets versus controlled expanding bullets

[mt terry d]

However, for the type of hunting I do, I would be more concerned about high impact velocities at close range. Is this a valid concern? How does this small/light/fragmenting bullet philosophy play out at much shorter ranges, for example, almost point-blank range out to 100 yards?

I killed a coyote broadside at about 15-20 yards, 223, 77TMK
exit hole was @ 1 1/2" diameter.

 

[FredH]

https://static.hornady.media/site/hornadyle/files/ballistic-gelatin-comparisons-1-3.pdf

You should probably do some reading on calibrated gel, why it's the standard, and why clear gel is a no-go. Link reposted from prior page, some relevant bits in red.

Okay then boo on clear gel. Now about posts # 49 and #50?

 

[WTFJohn]

Okay then boo on clear gel. Now about posts # 49 and #50?

#49: at 1770 fps the bullet tumbled for over 18" (talk about wallop!), on his third or forth shot into the same section of gel (meaning less density in the gel, exaggerating penetration and showing less than realistic expansion). At ~2000 fps it fragmented, sending shards of the jacket multiple inches off the path of most retained weight section of bullet. At higher velocities, it fragmented with shards exiting the block 3-5" away from the permanent wound cavity. That's a lethal bullet where I come from.

#50: .223 TMK; penetrated over 12" before exiting the block at the lowest velocity, leaving a 3"+ wound cavity. I don't care about the larger caliber videos. No one has ever contested that larger calibers do more damage. The conversation always has been what caliber/bullet does the damage that is needed to kill the hunted animal.

What regularly hunted ungulates or other animals would not die from the wounds shown in the videos you posted? There's a 517 page thread here with over 10,000 posts from various people (probably even folks near you) that shows the viability of that caliber and bullet, provided it's at a velocity at which it will upset.

Here's a few measurements I took on a mature CO cow elk carcass. I even included a few measurements for the TX heart shot crowd. This is obviously no BOAL, but it's bigger than any deer (whitetail or mule). The gel blocks in the videos are 6x6x16.

Pic 1: Add 4-5" if you go through the shoulder here. Still a dead elk at 18" penetration.


Pic 2: Full carcass pass through is 22". This is exaggerated vs reality since it's been hanging over a week. Still a dead elk at 18" penetration.



Pic 3: Full pass through behind the shoulder is 18" including ribs and skin. Dead elk.


Pic 4: TX Magnum special. Nuff said.


Pic 5: Slipping it behind the ribs on that BOAL quartering away. Dead elk.

 

[FredH]

#49: at 1770 fps the bullet tumbled for over 18" (talk about wallop!), on his third or forth shot into the same section of gel (meaning less density in the gel, exaggerating penetration and showing less than realistic expansion). At ~2000 fps it fragmented, sending shards of the jacket multiple inches off the path of most retained weight section of bullet. At higher velocities, it fragmented with shards exiting the block 3-5" away from the permanent wound cavity. That's a lethal bullet where I come from.

#50: .223 TMK; penetrated over 12" before exiting the block at the lowest velocity, leaving a 3"+ wound cavity. I don't care about the larger caliber videos. No one has ever contested that larger calibers do more damage. The conversation always has been what caliber/bullet does the damage that is needed to kill the hunted animal.

What regularly hunted ungulates or other animals would not die from the wounds shown in the videos you posted? There's a 517 page thread here with over 10,000 posts from various people (probably even folks near you) that shows the viability of that caliber and bullet, provided it's at a velocity at which it will upset.

Here's a few measurements I took on a mature CO cow elk carcass. I even included a few measurements for the TX heart shot crowd. This is obviously no BOAL, but it's bigger than any deer (whitetail or mule). The gel blocks in the videos are 6x6x16.

Pic 1: Add 4-5" if you go through the shoulder here. Still a dead elk at 18" penetration.
View attachment 836353

Pic 2: Full carcass pass through is 22". This is exaggerated vs reality since it's been hanging over a week. Still a dead elk at 18" penetration.
View attachment 836352


Pic 3: Full pass through behind the shoulder is 18" including ribs and skin. Dead elk.
View attachment 836354

Pic 4: TX Magnum special. Nuff said.
View attachment 836355

Pic 5: Slipping it behind the ribs on that BOAL quartering away. Dead elk.
View attachment 836356

So a bullet that just travels in any direction other than the direction it was aimed is ok with you? Tumbling bullets though better than point on without expansion are nowhere near as destructive as bullets that expand with our without fragments. If every shot was a broadside behind the shoulder hit you wouldn't need much of a gun now would you?

 

[Formidilosus]

So a bullet that just travels in any direction other than the direction it was aimed is ok with you? Tumbling bullets though better than point on without expansion are nowhere near as destructive as bullets that expand with our without fragments. If every shot was a broadside behind the shoulder hit you wouldn't need much of a gun now would you?

The majority of what you post about bullets is objectively incorrect, but the bolded and underlined portion is ridiculously so.

 

[WTFJohn]

So a bullet that just travels in any direction other than the direction it was aimed is ok with you? Tumbling bullets though better than point on without expansion are nowhere near as destructive as bullets that expand with our without fragments. If every shot was a broadside behind the shoulder hit you wouldn't need much of a gun now would you?

If it changes direction due to deformation or fragmentation after 12", why does it matter? I just showed you the depths of penetration needed to get into the vitals, even on a non-broadside shot (which I swear some people hold out for based on how often they seem to come up here). What does it matter to me or the animal if after nuking the heart it hangs a left and burns through the liver? Everything in it's path is going to be mush. Lungs, heart, bone, muscle, liver. There is not a sheet of AR500 in the front half of any ungulate in NA to stop the bullet.

This goes back to that 517 page thread, along with the 6mm thread. Thousands upon thousands of posts showing the terminal effects of that caliber/bullet on animals, yet you'd rather trust an unknown Youtuber's gel test that you searched out thinking it would support your opinion (while not even understanding the types of gel or why calibrating them is needed).

 

[HandgunHTR]

If it changes direction due to deformation or fragmentation after 12", why does it matter? I just showed you the depths of penetration needed to get into the vitals, even on a non-broadside shot (which I swear some people hold out for based on how often they seem to come up here). What does it matter to me or the animal if after nuking the heart it hangs a left and burns through the liver? Everything in it's path is going to be mush. Lungs, heart, bone, muscle, liver. There is not a sheet of AR500 in the front half of any ungulate in NA to stop the bullet.

This goes back to that 517 page thread, along with the 6mm thread. Thousands upon thousands of posts showing the terminal effects of that caliber/bullet on animals, yet you'd rather trust an unknown Youtuber's gel test that you searched out thinking it would support your opinion (while not even understanding the types of gel or why calibrating them is needed).

I will offer a bit of advice in the form a quote from one of my favorite authors.

“It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.” ― Thomas Sowell

 

[hereinaz]

Okay then boo on clear gel. Now about posts # 49 and #50?

I answered that already. The gel used in posts 49 and 50 is just dirty clear gel. The results only show what the bullet does in dirty clear gel. It is not a reliable test medium for the purpose you stated. And, even FBI ballistic gel starts to fail at the extremes because little things matter more.

Bottom line, I like to think about bullet performance as if I were a surgeon tasked with trying to save the animal immediately after it was shot...

If someone asked “what is the type of bullet that causes the most damage and is the hardest to repair and save the patient?”

Having seen the devastation of fragmenting bullets, that’s my choice.

Also, the papers written by surgeons discussing wound profiles support my position.

 

[Skydog]

I would highly encourage anyone interested in the topic of terminal ballistics, how bullets kill animals, etc. to listen to these 3 podcasts in their entirety. They're not short, but it is an investment of your time that is well worth it to understand this topic. I listened to them last week and it challenged a lot of what I thought I knew and had been taught about this subject. I wish I had known this information 25+ years ago when I started deer hunting. I would have done some things differently. If you use these podcasts as the background/context and then spend some time in the .223 and 6MM kill/autopsy threads on this forum, the reasoning and real-world evidence (not gel tests) is hard to dispute.

 

[AZ_Hunter]

I would highly encourage anyone interested in the topic of terminal ballistics, how bullets kill animals, etc. to listen to these 3 podcasts in their entirety. They're not short, but it is an investment of your time that is well worth it to understand this topic. I listened to them last week and it challenged a lot of what I thought I knew and had been taught about this subject. I wish I had known this information 25+ years ago when I started deer hunting. I would have done some things differently. If you use these podcasts as the background/context and then spend some time in the .223 and 6MM kill/autopsy threads on this forum, the reasoning and real-world evidence (not gel tests) is hard to dispute.

Then watch their video actually shooting game. Spoiler: the 108ELDM killed everything with ease.

 

[Skydog]

Then watch their video actually shooting game. Spoiler: the 108ELDM killed everything with ease.

Which video is that? Can you provide a link? Thanks!

 

[hereinaz]

Which video is that? Can you provide a link? Thanks!

Their caribou and moose hunts in Alaska hunts this year, Steve shot his 6 Creedmoor.

 

[Skydog]

Their caribou and moose hunts in Alaska hunts this year, Steve shot his 6 Creedmoor.

I found them...thanks!

 

[Skydog]

Their caribou and moose hunts in Alaska hunts this year, Steve shot his 6 Creedmoor.

Wow...those videos are amazing! Tons of respect for those guys.

Question...does it typically take multiple shots to bring down a moose, even when hunting with larger calibers?

 

[hereinaz]

Wow...those videos are amazing! Tons of respect for those guys.

Question...does it typically take multiple shots to bring down a moose, even when hunting with larger calibers?

Yes. It always takes time for the blood to stop flowing to the brain. A bigger bullet isn’t doing that much more damage relative to the size of the animal.

“They” say, look at the bull soaking up those big bullets, they are tough animals.

Then, they say “look at how long those little bullets take to kill the bull, you need more wallop.”

The time is pretty much the same, but the bias colors the response.

If the animal is still standing, you keep shooting…