.50 cal Muzzleloader with powerbelt 220gr bullets leave no blood or a shitty blood trail.Have you ever shot a deer, or know of someone else shooting a deer with a larger caliber that also didn’t leave blood?
.50 cal Muzzleloader with powerbelt 220gr bullets leave no blood or a shitty blood trail.Have you ever shot a deer, or know of someone else shooting a deer with a larger caliber that also didn’t leave blood?
Muzzleloaders SUCK but I still love a muzzy hunt every year..50 cal Muzzleloader with powerbelt 220gr bullets leave no blood or a shitty blood trail.
The argument supporting the PRC shift is always "6.5 wont do well past 500 yrds on elk".
Interestingly enough, the other day I decided to google the average distance on elk shots, and wasted a ton of time going down the rabbit hole of MANY forums, including this one and LRH, where guys all discussed the amount of elk they've taken, the average shot distance, and whether it was successful (recovered and packed out and dead after tracking).
The average shot distance, based on EVERY post Ive found on this, was well below 500 yards to begin with (in the US at least). In many cases, it was closer to 150-200 yards, with some occasional outliers coming close to 500 yard shots, but those were in the overwhelming minority. The few guys who did happen to have that in their experience, still averaged 350 yards or less between their combined hunts and in most instances, that was a 1 shot experience that skewed the overall average higher of less than 10 hunts.
Bet you'll use your $2700 fake Remington 700 too. Tell us more, oh great one. We love to hear how your CA FFT TI rifles and big boy cartridges shoot and kill so much better than us lowly smaller caliber Tikka shooters can do. Please preach to us and show us your ways!Hey, if you don't want the recoil of a larger rifle and want to use a 223 or 6cm or 6.5cm, great. Use it. However, don't shove that sunshine up my ass that it's a better tool than my 06 or most anything else because you can't handle recoil very well or don't choose to. Most men can and do handle a 270 or 06 just fine, and many handle much larger just fine, however I do understand in recent years more and more men are softer than I remember. Sure, even my 22 K-Hornet revolver will kill stuff very dead. That's fine. So is my 06. I don't make excuses for bad shots or bad cartridges or bad bullets regardless what my choice of weapon is. It's about knowing what YOU are capable of...not so much what is in your hands.
My CA will take it easy in the safe this year over my lowly little tikka, they do share the same head stamp though… good luck on the elk hunt! Let us know how the 6arc handles!Bet you'll use your $2700 fake Remington 700 too. Tell us more, oh great one. We love to hear how your CA FFT TI rifles and big boy cartridges shoot and kill so much better than us lowly smaller caliber Tikka shooters can do. Please preach to us and show us your ways!
I'll go kill a bull elk in 2 weeks with my 6 ARC with the 103 ELDX just to spite your opinions.
Jay
My lowly 6ARC rings steel at 505 and 755 on command with the 103 ELDX. At the elevation I hunt at, I'm still at 1800 to 680 yards but will likely keep shots sub 500 there are only a couple places where I can't get closer than that. Sometimes it is 50 yards in the trees walking a bench and sometimes it is across canyon from treed ridge to open ridge 500 yards away. Always a good time walking the mountains in SW Montana. I'll probably bring my 6.5 PRC Tikka too in case I go further south to some more open areas to hunt with my adult son. Down there, most opportunities are 400 to 800 yards and this lot of 6 ARC ammo is super slow so the velocity isn't there. The 156 Berger loads I have are still at 2000 fps at 1K yards at elevation so no problem with the 6.5 PRC for those open lands.My CA will take it easy in the safe this year over my lowly little tikka, they do share the same head stamp though… good luck on the elk hunt! Let us know how the 6arc handles!
Hey, if you don't want the recoil of a larger rifle and want to use a 223 or 6cm or 6.5cm, great. Use it. However, don't shove that sunshine up my ass that it's a better tool than my 06 or most anything else because you can't handle recoil very well or don't choose to. Most men can and do handle a 270 or 06 just fine, and many handle much larger just fine, however I do understand in recent years more and more men are softer than I remember. Sure, even my 22 K-Hornet revolver will kill stuff very dead. That's fine. So is my 06. I don't make excuses for bad shots or bad cartridges or bad bullets regardless what my choice of weapon is. It's about knowing what YOU are capable of...not so much what is in your hands.
I literally relayed a first hand situation with pictures that showed a deer shoulder with a wound where 99% of hunters aim, a peeled back jacket and deformed lead core, internal pictures of a cavity with a ton of bloodshot and no penetrations. I got told my friend is lying, people that aren't Delta Force or SEAL team don't actually remember what they did, those aren't pictures of the same deer and he's after personal gain, he didn't see another deer in front of the one he shot perfectly where he was aiming, etc.So do we have any real hard evidence? We have eld-X shoulder guy’s friend and then some weird metric of full pass through vs no pass through then lots of talk of marginal shots or no animal or what not…. Seems like we don’t have a growing body of evidence for these failures…
Too much coffee? Relax, no one cares what caliber you use.Hey, if you don't want the recoil of a larger rifle and want to use a 223 or 6cm or 6.5cm, great. Use it. However, don't shove that sunshine up my ass that it's a better tool than my 06 or most anything else because you can't handle recoil very well or don't choose to. Most men can and do handle a 270 or 06 just fine, and many handle much larger just fine, however I do understand in recent years more and more men are softer than I remember. Sure, even my 22 K-Hornet revolver will kill stuff very dead. That's fine. So is my 06. I don't make excuses for bad shots or bad cartridges or bad bullets regardless what my choice of weapon is. It's about knowing what YOU are capable of...not so much what is in your hands.
Remember a 24" 6.5cm and a 20" 6.5prc are the same gun...This is an interesting thread..all 15 pages of it so far.
I'll contribute something as a complete newbie to hunting, but somewhat more comfortable in rifle shooting, and working in data analysis..
I find it odd that the phenomenon when discussing these 3 calibers seems to always come to the circular argument of being "outgunned" for the task at hand.
Im personally interested in going on an elk hunt. It wont happen this year, but its my goal within the next 5 years or less, if tags and all work out.
I have spent more time behind my now second 6.5 creedmoor rifle than anything else I own at this point (20+ arms and the list will keep going up), because I enjoy shooting it, the performance is predictable at distance, its repeatedly accurate, and because the recoil is mild and pleasant. It only got better once I introduced a suppressor to this setup. Recoil now is on par with significantly lighter rounds like 5.56, and it feels hearing-safe as well.
When looking up "elk hunting calibers", I keep seeing back and fourth about 6.5 not being "enough gun" for elk hunting, and suggesting to step up to 6.5 PRC or even 7 prc.
The argument supporting the PRC shift is always "6.5 wont do well past 500 yrds on elk".
Interestingly enough, the other day I decided to google the average distance on elk shots, and wasted a ton of time going down the rabbit hole of MANY forums, including this one and LRH, where guys all discussed the amount of elk they've taken, the average shot distance, and whether it was successful (recovered and packed out and dead after tracking).
The average shot distance, based on EVERY post Ive found on this, was well below 500 yards to begin with (in the US at least). In many cases, it was closer to 150-200 yards, with some occasional outliers coming close to 500 yard shots, but those were in the overwhelming minority. The few guys who did happen to have that in their experience, still averaged 350 yards or less between their combined hunts and in most instances, that was a 1 shot experience that skewed the overall average higher of less than 10 hunts.
What I see quite often which is odd to me, is this moving the goal post criterion for caliber discussions, and then points neglecting the obvious benefit (off the shelf ammo selection, popularity of the round, expanding offerings every year in rifles as well), just to try to justify telling someone else to get something like a 7mm rem mag, neglecting the obvious that the recoil alone (amongst other things) is going to be reasonably more. I also know, and see first hand regularly, at my gun club, guys who get recoil-shy trying their 300 WSM, and look like they're being forced to even shoot it, during sight in season at my club.
We all know someone like this. They are the one who will more than likely wound an animal, by placing a poor shot, due to lack of practice, and more than likely not recover it, regardless of having "enough gun" or not.
Also what gets ignored frequently is that these "enough gun" calibers are routinely within the 1000 round expectancy of barrel life. For those who only take it out once a year to sight in and end up expending less than 1 box of ammo in a whole season, that may be perfectly fine.
However, I like to shoot my deer hunting rifle regularly to maintain proficiency with it, and I'd like to do the same with this future elk rifle, once I build it, so that means at least 2-3 boxes, every other weekend, at minimum of a year, until I feel confident with using it. I may even be up to 100 rounds per session, to start, to really get comfortable with positional shooting, testing ammo, etc.
I'll throw one more newbie thing into the fold. Ammo manufacturers, like anyone else, occasionally put out a product that slips past QC and obviously shouldnt have. Hornady is not immune to that. Theres a multi-caliber recall right now on Hornady Black. Its not the most expensive ammo in their bunch, but its also not the cheapest by any means, for their catalogue.
The post that keeps being referenced to the ELDX that failed...its very possibly that was a bad round. It happens. It also doesnt speak to ELDX as a whole being inadequate, or even the caliber, for the task at hand.
Feel free to disregard all of this with the obvious of me being a new inexperienced hunter. Just wanted to share some observations.
Not if hand loading lol. My 21" PRC sends the 143 at 2930.
Re pass thru’s.Wow, I should have made some popcorn cause this is one entertaining thread.. Way past my bedtime now as I just read the whole thing.
In regards to the debate about the "failure to penetrate" poster with the actual photos...... Here is a BS theory that I haven't seen mentioned. As I read through this thread I kept remembering Form's comments in multiple podcasts that "all bullets fail." And I'm basing my BS theories on the assumption that at some point, every bullet is going to fail to do what was advertised to do, and maybe this was the one in a milion situation. This is also based on a desire to believe the poster and give folks a bit of respect. (knowing damn well that sometimes on the internet that isn't deserved.)
Wouldn't this type of bullet failure be possible if that one specific bullet had a manufacturing error?
1- What if only a partial load of powder was inserted in the cartridge, so the muzzle velocity was much slower than it should have been? Wouldn't this explain a wound like that?
2- OR, what if the lead core was not formed to spec, leaving voids or gaps in between jacket and core, or leaving only a partial core?
3-OR, what if the bullet yawed due to manufacturing error causing it to be out of balance, hitting the hide sideways.
Could any of these explain that type of wound if you take the OPs data as accurate?
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Second comment---(it's kinda fun jumping into the bar fight after everyone's out cold on the floor....)
It appears to me that there is a valid argument for some hunters to strongly desire an exit wound for better tracking in heavy cover. While I see a ton of arguing about this, it seems quite reasonable for some to feel like a blood trail is a big advantage in successfully recovering the highest percentage of game possible in heavy cover. (I'm thinking of Moose in Alaska, and Whitetail hunting in upstair NY.)
Taking that as a settled: then an important question arises that I don't see addressed:
Is it true that match/frangible bullets exit animals much less frequently than bonded or monos of the same caliber at the same impact velocity? Can anybody point to any research or large-count analysis that gives us a better feel for the difference?
Secondarily, is it true that match/frangible bullets of the same brand and model will exit more reliably as 1) velocity is increased and/or 2)caliber is increased. Again, can anybody point to any research or large-count analysis that gives us a better feel for if either of these are true and if so, to what degree changes in velocity or caliber makes a difference?
In other words--- do any of you out there have good, fact-based guidance for a hunter who needs/wants a reliable exit wound and bleeding but is also curious to try-out smaller than usual calibers and/or match/frangible bullet?
Thanks
Dude i mentioned that as the 1 fail that we have! But we have 13 pages of not a whole lot else, a few stories and lots of bickering about metrics! Chill WinstonI literally relayed a first hand situation with pictures that showed a deer shoulder with a wound where 99% of hunters aim, a peeled back jacket and deformed lead core, internal pictures of a cavity with a ton of bloodshot and no penetrations. I got told my friend is lying, people that aren't Delta Force or SEAL team don't actually remember what they did, those aren't pictures of the same deer and he's after personal gain, he didn't see another deer in front of the one he shot perfectly where he was aiming, etc.
You can't make that shit up. It appears no amount of evidence or attestation will appease the cult, if you're not there, it doesn't matter.
Not directed at you, just generally speaking. It got comical.Dude i mentioned that as the 1 fail that we have! But we have 13 pages of not a whole lot else, a few stories and lots of bickering about metrics! Chill Winston
My 24" 6.5CM with the 147 ELDM is 2599 fps and my 22" 6.5 PRC with the 147 ELDM is 2830 fps. Even if I lost 100 fps going from 22" to 20", I'd still be 130 fps faster than the 24" 6.5CM. This is with factory Hornady ammo. With handloads, you can push the 6.5 PRC far harder than the 6.5CM.