.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[KHNC]

Have you ever shot a deer, or know of someone else shooting a deer with a larger caliber that also didn’t leave blood?

.50 cal Muzzleloader with powerbelt 220gr bullets leave no blood or a shitty blood trail.

 

[Live_weighT34]

.50 cal Muzzleloader with powerbelt 220gr bullets leave no blood or a shitty blood trail.

Muzzleloaders SUCK but I still love a muzzy hunt every year.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

This is an interesting thread..all 15 pages of it so far.

I'll contribute something as a complete newbie to hunting, but somewhat more comfortable in rifle shooting, and working in data analysis..

I find it odd that the phenomenon when discussing these 3 calibers seems to always come to the circular argument of being "outgunned" for the task at hand.

Im personally interested in going on an elk hunt. It wont happen this year, but its my goal within the next 5 years or less, if tags and all work out.

I have spent more time behind my now second 6.5 creedmoor rifle than anything else I own at this point (20+ arms and the list will keep going up), because I enjoy shooting it, the performance is predictable at distance, its repeatedly accurate, and because the recoil is mild and pleasant. It only got better once I introduced a suppressor to this setup. Recoil now is on par with significantly lighter rounds like 5.56, and it feels hearing-safe as well.

When looking up "elk hunting calibers", I keep seeing back and fourth about 6.5 not being "enough gun" for elk hunting, and suggesting to step up to 6.5 PRC or even 7 prc.

The argument supporting the PRC shift is always "6.5 wont do well past 500 yrds on elk".

Interestingly enough, the other day I decided to google the average distance on elk shots, and wasted a ton of time going down the rabbit hole of MANY forums, including this one and LRH, where guys all discussed the amount of elk they've taken, the average shot distance, and whether it was successful (recovered and packed out and dead after tracking).

The average shot distance, based on EVERY post Ive found on this, was well below 500 yards to begin with (in the US at least). In many cases, it was closer to 150-200 yards, with some occasional outliers coming close to 500 yard shots, but those were in the overwhelming minority. The few guys who did happen to have that in their experience, still averaged 350 yards or less between their combined hunts and in most instances, that was a 1 shot experience that skewed the overall average higher of less than 10 hunts.

What I see quite often which is odd to me, is this moving the goal post criterion for caliber discussions, and then points neglecting the obvious benefit (off the shelf ammo selection, popularity of the round, expanding offerings every year in rifles as well), just to try to justify telling someone else to get something like a 7mm rem mag, neglecting the obvious that the recoil alone (amongst other things) is going to be reasonably more. I also know, and see first hand regularly, at my gun club, guys who get recoil-shy trying their 300 WSM, and look like they're being forced to even shoot it, during sight in season at my club.

We all know someone like this. They are the one who will more than likely wound an animal, by placing a poor shot, due to lack of practice, and more than likely not recover it, regardless of having "enough gun" or not.

Also what gets ignored frequently is that these "enough gun" calibers are routinely within the 1000 round expectancy of barrel life. For those who only take it out once a year to sight in and end up expending less than 1 box of ammo in a whole season, that may be perfectly fine.

However, I like to shoot my deer hunting rifle regularly to maintain proficiency with it, and I'd like to do the same with this future elk rifle, once I build it, so that means at least 2-3 boxes, every other weekend, at minimum of a year, until I feel confident with using it. I may even be up to 100 rounds per session, to start, to really get comfortable with positional shooting, testing ammo, etc.

I'll throw one more newbie thing into the fold. Ammo manufacturers, like anyone else, occasionally put out a product that slips past QC and obviously shouldnt have. Hornady is not immune to that. Theres a multi-caliber recall right now on Hornady Black. Its not the most expensive ammo in their bunch, but its also not the cheapest by any means, for their catalogue.

The post that keeps being referenced to the ELDX that failed...its very possibly that was a bad round. It happens. It also doesnt speak to ELDX as a whole being inadequate, or even the caliber, for the task at hand.

Feel free to disregard all of this with the obvious of me being a new inexperienced hunter. Just wanted to share some observations.

 

[Shraggs]

Late finding this thread on match style failures on game.

I’ll add - older style very frangible type bullets too since I go back in years now. My personal definition is poor performance to incapacitation - time and/or distance. For deer and arrows or bullets 50 yards or less is great and acceptable is 75 yards. Right or wrong my view. Not recovered is certainly worse.

1. Deer 80 yards ish, 32 ws, 170 g Winchester silver tips. Broadside walking. Animal hunched up and moved slowly off in same direction. Very little blood, but enough to recover. Gutting revealed paunch and some liver. Conclusion, bad shot. I was 12, open sights standing…

2. Deer 253 steps activity raking and licking branch and scrape, 7 mag w federal 150 g ballistic tips. At the shot from a deer blind with front rest he was broadside, and took off at the shot. After waiting a bit went to look and found a bit of blood and tracked for 50 yards and it stopped. Got help, and 4 hours later following a pin drop every 10 yards found him. Gutting him revealed a quartering away at rear left rib and only one small piece of copper in front right shoulder and some liver damage. Conclusion, he moved at time of shot enough to rotate and I didn’t see it.

3. Deer at 298 yards walking on edge of uncut hayfield. 223 with 77 tmk. On ground using a very old large round haybail. Very stable no wobble and simply waited until she stopped and fired. She dropped but got up and staggered into woods about 20 yards. Waited a bit and walked over with knife and her head was up! Backed out and grabbed gun and she was up and staggered into thick crap. Waited a few hours before getting her. There was blood where she initially laid but none as I quickly scanned. I did see where she went. Gutting revealed the shot was high, forward and quarter too. Conclusion, it was a bad shot - because as she was walking from initial range point it was at an angle getting closer and the tall grass hid that and I never re ranged and hence dialed down, second the hay did not allow me, my desires, to see feet on the ground for confirmation of broadside or not, and clearly not. Damage was still very goo but high. She 60 yards in all.

No autopsy’s - first two the iPhone was not invented yet and didn’t have a range finder until they were available…

Op, I realize all animals were recovered and in my eyes there was failure. It’s easy to blame a bullet but it was me. Maybe not shooting accuracy per se but timing judgement and certainly orientation perspective. In these situations I’m first thinking what did I do wrong, not my bullet sucks.

I have several other redos in over 4 decades of killing deer and a couple I never recovered and none where with high fragmenting bullets, just the opposite. In those cases I most definitely can point to me making enough small mistakes with similar scenarios but it’s the less damage that extended the range to presumable death on neighbors private property.

It wasn’t until lawnbio mentioned it in another thread. I now shoot smaller calibers I wasn’t always seeing my impact on steel…. Figured out I had a habit of closing my eyes at the shot. Not sure why, maybe the magnums I used to shoot. But I’m still consciously aware when I practice now.

I’ve killed successfully with the 77 tmk and am a real believer. This year I’ve added a 6 creed! To me this is about trade offs. The confidence, low recoil, improved bc and extended range without recoil, ability to spot shots and devastating damage are all pluses (if I were still shooting a 30 cal I’m not sure the Devastation would be a good thing as it scales up) . Depending on terrain no exit is a con. I hate tracking in tall thin grass and deadfall, etc. So limited or no blood could be a real problem if —- there wasn’t a real good shot. The rest, My good shots to date have been dead in less than 20 yards.

If it’s a good shot there should not be any trepidation on the lethality, none.