.223, 6mm, and 6.5 failures on big game

[The Guide]

That's why I'll be using my AR on some does this season to test out the .223 match bullets thing myself before my kids old enough to hunt.

We are 3 for 3 one shot kills using the 223 with match bullets. 2 whitetail does with the 73eldm for my daughter and one mule deer doe with the 77tmk for my son. I was skeptical but after I killed an antelope at 400 yards with the 77tmk I figured the kids could do it and have less mental stress about recoil. They love to practice with the 223's we have in the summer so we use them in the fall now too.

Jay

 

[Bluefish]

Maybe not a failure, but not at all what was expected. Relatively new hunter, only 3 years into the journey and this was my first deer. This is the entry, 35 whelen (min 35 cal by regs), 150g cutting edge ER raptor, at 70 yards, 2800 mv. Left a huge blood trail, painted a tree red and went 75-100 yards. No exit, lungs were soup. I have since used the same bullet at much slower speeds with better/expected results. Not sure what happened on this one. Called CE and they said probably hit something before impact with the animal. Thoughts?

 

[Formidilosus]

Maybe not a failure, but not at all what was expected. Relatively new hunter, only 3 years into the journey and this was my first deer. This is the entry, 35 whelen (min 35 cal by regs), 150g cutting edge ER raptor, at 70 yards, 2800 mv. Left a huge blood trail, painted a tree red and went 75-100 yards. No exit, lungs were soup. I have since used the same bullet at much slower speeds with better/expected results. Not sure what happened on this one. Called CE and they said probably hit something before impact with the animal. Thoughts?

View attachment 783643

If that is the entrance, then yes most probably it hit something before impact. What would cause some question of that is how round the wound is, which could be caused by that bullet without the tip. Potentially.

 

[Bluefish]

If that is the entrance, then yes most probably it hit something before impact. What would cause some question of that is how round the wound is, which could be caused by that bullet without the tip. Potentially.

It is definitely the entrance. There was no exit. Probably about the size of a red bull can or maybe a soda can. Was about 110lb buck.

 

[Axlrod]

It is definitely the entrance. There was no exit. Probably about the size of a red bull can or maybe a soda can. Was about 110lb buck.

Do you have a pic of the bullet?

 

[KHntr]

I find it surprising that so many guys have looked at the interior pictures of that ribcage, and come to the conclusion that it’s bruising, instead of what it is much more likely to actually be - just a blood stain. Has anyone EVER seen bruising on the inside of deer rib bones?!?!?

I wasn’t there, but I would be absolutely shocked if that “bruise” couldn’t be wiped off with a damp cloth……..

 

[omicron1792]

Maybe not a failure, but not at all what was expected. Relatively new hunter, only 3 years into the journey and this was my first deer. This is the entry, 35 whelen (min 35 cal by regs), 150g cutting edge ER raptor, at 70 yards, 2800 mv. Left a huge blood trail, painted a tree red and went 75-100 yards. No exit, lungs were soup. I have since used the same bullet at much slower speeds with better/expected results. Not sure what happened on this one. Called CE and they said probably hit something before impact with the animal. Thoughts?

View attachment 783643

Raptors are terrible to tumble with any brush or limb impact. I love raptors but only with clear line of sight.

 

[omicron1792]

If that is the entrance, then yes most probably it hit something before impact. What would cause some question of that is how round the wound is, which could be caused by that bullet without the tip. Potentially.

Also don’t you think is possible form that the twist rate wasn’t right for that bullet? The ER raptor is a long mofo of a projectile and needs a modern fast twist barrel a 35 whelen might not have. That bullet was possibly tumbling from lack of twist.

 

[Bowfinn]

I find it surprising that so many guys have looked at the interior pictures of that ribcage, and come to the conclusion that it’s bruising, instead of what it is much more likely to actually be - just a blood stain. Has anyone EVER seen bruising on the inside of deer rib bones?!?!?

I wasn’t there, but I would be absolutely shocked if that “bruise” couldn’t be wiped off with a damp cloth……..

I’m one of the guys who thinks that it is bruising on the inside of the rib cage in the Picture.

First of all that’s a really clean thoracic cavity with only minimal blood left in the picture. My guess is that deer was washed out with a hose or 5 gallon buckets of water. Maybe @Harvey_NW can confirm this if he cares to. If it was washed out with water, why wasn’t it easily removed with all of the other blood that should be in the rib cage?

Second when you look at blood in the green circles notice how it runs along the muscle fibers of the intercostal muscles and not straight with gravity. Compare that to the blood in the blue circles that is mainly flowing straight down with gravity.

Third I believe the yellow circle to be a fracture of the rib, which is reasonable possibility after a GSW to the thorax. However, I admit the picture isn’t the best view for confirming rib fractures.

That’s why I believe it’s not just a surface blood stain, but I’ve been wrong before and I’ll be wrong again.

 

[KHntr]

For me, that looks like pooled blood or blood and water combo if you like, and the blue is slightly coagulated run off, as per your drawings.

Regardless, you don’t see bruised bone like on the inside of the ribs. That absolutely looks like blood (or blood and water) was pooled on it for a short time before the animal was hung.

My main point being however, that you can show something to a bunch of different people, and they can all see something different and come to different conclusions.

 

[Bluefish]

Also don’t you think is possible form that the twist rate wasn’t right for that bullet? The ER raptor is a long mofo of a projectile and needs a modern fast twist barrel a 35 whelen might not have. That bullet was possibly tumbling from lack of twist.

It’s only 150g, so not super long, 1.147” oal, with a 1:16 twist required, I believe tc used 1:14. While it’s possible that it was tumbling they group well at 100.

 

[Pilsner]

Ok. I’ve shot a bunch of deer with 6.5’s, 7mm, 30cals, and 338’s that left no blood trials.

Same if you add in 12 and 20 ga slugs.
No blood trails with exit wounds is common place.
The deer simply didn't live long enough to have their lungs fill up enough to spill out the entry/exit wounds.

 

[Pilsner]

Yes. I have shot hundreds of deer. All with larger cartridges and they all have left blood trails.

Anyone who claims an event with animals and a sample size of hundreds using the word "all" is prolly talking out of their a$$.

I've found that folks who use words like all, never, and every are either lying or their sample size is small
Shoot enough critters and weird shit will happen.

 

[deerhunter628]

Anyone who claims an event with animals and a sample size of hundreds using the word "all" is prolly talking out of their a$$.

I've found that folks who use words like all, never, and every are either lying or their sample size is small
Shoot enough critters and weird shit will happen.

Do you have statistical data to back up your bold statement or is it a typical “its true because i said so”

 

[turbo406]

Was shooting a 300 prc with a 215 berger and took an extremely extreme high angle shot on a raccoon in a tree above me, the bullet bounced off the raccoon completely but knocked it out of the tree causing it to die when it hit the ground, proving once and for all that knock down power absolutely exists and is the only measure of killing power

 

[Pilsner]

Do you have statistical data to back up your bold statement or is it a typical “its true because i said so”

It's true every single time. Or it never is.
But trust me my N=1 experience is 100% true

 

[Wrench]

If that is the entrance, then yes most probably it hit something before impact. What would cause some question of that is how round the wound is, which could be caused by that bullet without the tip. Potentially.

I'd have suggested this and kind of did with my response pertaining to a rock stuck on the deer....but if the bullet struck anything in it's path it was able to recover from it's yaw and impact symmetrically based on the uniform mushroom.....imo.

 

[Ozarkansas]

Anyone who claims an event with animals and a sample size of hundreds using the word "all" is prolly talking out of their a$$.

I've found that folks who use words like all, never, and every are either lying or their sample size is small
Shoot enough critters and weird shit will happen.

My sample size is merely a few dozen deer and hogs, but neither myself nor my immediate family has had zero blood when there is an exit wound with expanding bullets, ever. So yeah maybe that sample size is too small but the only times I’ve seen no blood are when there’s no exit and the deer is dead within 50 yards

There might only be a few pinpricks of blood coming off the hole in the skin and rib muscle if it’s a high chest shot, at least until the chest cavity fills with blood. Or the blood trail might peter out on a gut shot as stomach contents plug the wound, but I’ve yet to see no blood.

 

[deerhunter628]

Anyone who claims an event with animals and a sample size of hundreds using the word "all" is prolly talking out of their a$$.

I've found that folks who use words like all, never, and every are either lying or their sample size is small
Shoot enough critters and weird shit will happen.

So you are saying that EVERY time someone says every time, all, never they ar “talking out of their a$$”. ALL of them. There is NEVER an exception?

 

[Macintosh]

Touche!