What caused the Rokslide shift to smallest caliber and cartridges?

[Thegman]

Guess again.

Infinity!!

Thanks for bringing back memories from when I was 6 years old, I enjoyed reminiscing.

 

[roadrunner]

Without reading every single post (because I lost interest early on when the triggered ego cat fights started) the shift occurred by what they call "influencers".

Some [of us] used smaller calibers for years before it became a "thing", back when people would tell you that a .257 cal was awfully small for elk. Perfect for pronghorn, but way to light for elk.

Some of the most devastating wounds I've seen on animals of elk size were done by a .243 (see the thread podcast on hunting oryx with Gilbert on caliber selection - some Renaissance thinkers will disagree). It was used because it fit the hunter, either a youth or a small frame lady hunter, and shot within a distance for optimal performance (not a 400 yd shot).

The only thing that makes smaller calibers relevant is bullet selection. Not just any bullet will work. It's specific, and without it, the small calibers, well...

 

[Castle Rock]

The only thing that makes smaller calibers relevant is bullet selection. Not just any bullet will work. It's specific, and without it, the small calibers, well...

That isn’t true at all, people who used the factory 55 grain soft points have probably killed way more game than TMKs have

 

[roadrunner]

That isn’t true at all, people who used the factory 55 grain soft points have probably killed way more game than TMKs have

Broad statement.

The word "probably" means you're guessing and you just want to disagree is all...

 

[The Guide]

Broad statement.

The word "probably" means you're guessing and you just want to disagree is all...

The soft point 55 grain .224 bullets have been available for 40 years longer than the TMK line. I would say he is "probably" correct.

Jay

 

[roadrunner]

The soft point 55 grain .224 bullets have been available for 40 years longer than the TMK line. I would say he is "probably" correct.

Jay

There's 2 that got their feeler's hurt.

If the 55 gr SP's are adequate, why are the shooting messiah's praising the 77 gr TMK's so much?

Don't pretend that what was done "40 years" ago on whitetail back east is the same thing that was done on large western big game at the same time. 55 gr 22 caliber soft point's used on Elk? Bighorn Sheep? Mountain Goats? For reference, that would be 1984.

40 years ago, writers like Jim Zumbo owned the market on big game caliber selection, and we all know what their preferences were. "Fuddlore" I think is the popular term used?

It's funny, really, that when I said bullet design matters, the TMK was the first thing thrown out. I never said anything about it...

 

[The Guide]

There's 2 that got their feeler's hurt.

If the 55 gr SP's are adequate, why are the shooting messiah's praising the 77 gr TMK's so much?

Don't pretend that what was done "40 years" ago on whitetail back east is the same thing that was done on large western big game at the same time. 55 gr 22 caliber soft point's used on Elk? Bighorn Sheep? Mountain Goats? For reference, that would be 1984.

40 years ago, writers like Jim Zumbo owned the market on big game caliber selection, and we all know what their preferences were. "Fuddlore" I think is the popular term used?

It's funny, really, that when I said bullet design matters, the TMK was the first thing thrown out. I never said anything about it...

Hurt feelings... I don't have feelings.

In 1984 you don't think there were people killing antelope, deer, and elk and all other western game with the same gun that was in the truck for coyotes? Back then there were 3 kinds of bullets. A FMJ was just for paper, a hollow point was for prairie dogs, and the soft point was for everything else. Every rancher I know kept a 22-250 in every farm truck until the madness of covid killed their ability to buy a box of shells when they went to town for fuel or feed. I knew several kids in high school who's only gun was a 22-250 and they killed everything with it. The 55 grain soft point 0.224 caliber bullet has been killing everything from Alaska to Florida since before 1950. I know this makes you irrational, but it is irregardlessly true. The 55g 0.224" soft point has killed more game than the TMK has since it was designed. Is the 55g sp a better bullet on game than the TMK? That is an entirely different discussion over the fact that the 55g sp has killed more game than the TMK.

Jay

 

[ElPollo]

Hurt feelings... I don't have feelings.

In 1984 you don't think there were people killing antelope, deer, and elk and all other western game with the same gun that was in the truck for coyotes? Back then there were 3 kinds of bullets. A FMJ was just for paper, a hollow point was for prairie dogs, and the soft point was for everything else. Every rancher I know kept a 22-250 in every farm truck until the madness of covid killed their ability to buy a box of shells when they went to town for fuel or feed. I knew several kids in high school who's only gun was a 22-250 and they killed everything with it. The 55 grain soft point 0.224 caliber bullet has been killing everything from Alaska to Florida since before 1950. I know this makes you irrational, but it is irregardlessly true. The 55g 0.224" soft point has killed more game than the TMK has since it was designed. Is the 55g sp a better bullet on game than the TMK? That is an entirely different discussion over the fact that the 55g sp has killed more game than the TMK.

Jay

In the late 90’s, I was living in Flagstaff and had an awesome neighbor who hunted elk with a 22-250 and 55 gr SP bullets. He had open heart surgery several years before and his Dr told him no more big kickers. Not sure if it was legal for everyone at that point or just those with a medical condition. But his 22-250 killed elk like a hammer. Miss that guy. He’s been gone about 12 years.

 

[Reburn]

Hurt feelings... I don't have feelings.

In 1984 you don't think there were people killing antelope, deer, and elk and all other western game with the same gun that was in the truck for coyotes? Back then there were 3 kinds of bullets. A FMJ was just for paper, a hollow point was for prairie dogs, and the soft point was for everything else. Every rancher I know kept a 22-250 in every farm truck until the madness of covid killed their ability to buy a box of shells when they went to town for fuel or feed. I knew several kids in high school who's only gun was a 22-250 and they killed everything with it. The 55 grain soft point 0.224 caliber bullet has been killing everything from Alaska to Florida since before 1950. I know this makes you irrational, but it is irregardlessly true. The 55g 0.224" soft point has killed more game than the TMK has since it was designed. Is the 55g sp a better bullet on game than the TMK? That is an entirely different discussion over the fact that the 55g sp has killed more game than the TMK.

Jay

Here in Texas everyone I know started their kids on 22-250. Even now. soft points or 64 gr power points were always standard fare.

 

[ElPollo]

The same guy in Flagstaff used to chuckle about his brother-in-law. He hunted his whole life with a 30/06 but always dreamed of owning a 300 Weatherby. The brother-in-law bought one when he retired, but never could shoot it and never killed anything cleanly after getting it. He would make his son sight it in for him before every season because it kicked too hard. I remember one season in about ‘98 or ‘99 the brother-in-law shot a big bull in the front leg and tracked it several miles to a gut pile next to a road.

Both of those fellas were great guys, but if I had to bet on one of them making meat it would always be my neighbor with the 22-250.

 

[Marbles]

Hurt feelings... I don't have feelings.

In 1984 you don't think there were people killing antelope, deer, and elk and all other western game with the same gun that was in the truck for coyotes? Back then there were 3 kinds of bullets. A FMJ was just for paper, a hollow point was for prairie dogs, and the soft point was for everything else. Every rancher I know kept a 22-250 in every farm truck until the madness of covid killed their ability to buy a box of shells when they went to town for fuel or feed. I knew several kids in high school who's only gun was a 22-250 and they killed everything with it. The 55 grain soft point 0.224 caliber bullet has been killing everything from Alaska to Florida since before 1950. I know this makes you irrational, but it is irregardlessly true. The 55g 0.224" soft point has killed more game than the TMK has since it was designed. Is the 55g sp a better bullet on game than the TMK? That is an entirely different discussion over the fact that the 55g sp has killed more game than the TMK.

Jay

When someone has to jump to accusing anyone they disagree with of hurt feelings, well that is a pretty sure sign they are not worth the adenosine triphosphate needed to type a reply.

I appreciated reading your reply anyway, and the great reminder that small is not actually new.

 

[Castle Rock]

There's 2 that got their feeler's hurt.

I don’t think it’s us that are wound a bit tight

 

[HandgunHTR]

Here in Texas everyone I know started their kids on 22-250. Even now. soft points or 64 gr power points were always standard fare.

It always amazes me that kids and women have been killing animals for decades with .22 and .24 caliber chamberings but somehow it won't work for grown men.

 

[CMP70306]

My biggest thing is the dichotomy in the rhetoric, if the .223 is all you ever need for any game in North America and anything bigger causes increased recoil which degrades accuracy then why does the 22 UM exist?

 

[turbo406]

I'd be willing to bet the 220 swift and 22 250 shooting 55 sp's have a body count that would blow your mind if you started talking to old ranchers.

 

[RockAndSage]

My biggest thing is the dichotomy in the rhetoric, if the .223 is all you ever need for any game in North America and anything bigger causes increased recoil which degrades accuracy then why does the 22 UM exist?

Hit probability.

And greater distances, with higher hit probability.

Nobody's arguing that no cartridges except .223 are acceptable. The core argument is that .223 maximizes shootability, including just affording a higher volume of practice. The better the bullet out of a .223, the further out you can hit and still create lethal wounds. The 55gr soft points have been whacking big game for a very long time, but 77gr TMK extends the max lethal range. It also seems to penetrate better, with a better wound channel, based on all the evidence shared here.

That same bullet moving faster out of a bigger cartridge just enhances that advantage, until you reach a recoil tipping-point that's specific to each shooter.

 

[CMP70306]

I'd be willing to bet the 220 swift and 22 250 shooting 55 sp's have a body count that would blow your mind if you started talking to old ranchers.

I know a guy that started hunting with a .22-250 using 52gr HP after shoulder surgery.

Did it kill deer? Yes. Did we find all of them? No, with no visible reaction to the shot and no blood trail several were not found until days or weeks later as they traveled 100 to 200 yards after they were hit with no way to track them.

 

[Big_wals]

My biggest thing is the dichotomy in the rhetoric, if the .223 is all you ever need for any game in North America and anything bigger causes increased recoil which degrades accuracy then why does the 22 UM exist?

The 223 with good bullets has been proven time and again to be a reliable killer out to 400 to 450 yards. Most hunters will never shoot an animal at that range, and a lot won’t even get to 200. So yeah, for probably a solid 90% of hunters it is all that’s needed. Nobody has said it’s the only thing that works.

 

[Boarmaster]

As I got older and settled into the idea I was likely only going to ever hunt whitetails I just naturally migrated into smaller non magnum rifles as I bought additional rifles. With more experience under my belt I was better able to understand my needs. I got out of the mindset I needed to have 270 or 300 wby mag so “just in case “. Oh I still have all those bigger chambering in the safe but any purchases here on out for medium game will be 7mm08 on the bigger end. Its unlikely you will see me with a .223 but . I could dang sure kill deer with it. Thats my case based on my hunting.

 

[sveltri]

I know a guy that started hunting with a .22-250 using 52gr HP after shoulder surgery.

Did it kill deer? Yes. Did we find all of them? No, with no visible reaction to the shot and no blood trail several were not found until days or weeks later as they traveled 100 to 200 yards after they were hit with no way to track them.

I have a friend that has killed at least 30-40 deer over the last several years with a 22-250 and 53 grain Berger varmint bullets that has recovered every one of them. Maybe my buddy is a better shot??