Vaccine?

[IdahoElk]

The really scary thing is when places like restaurants, hotels, airlines etc won’t allow you to enter or use their services without proof you’ve had a vaccine.

Then it becomes a normalized event. Next year and the year after. With each new virus there will be lockdowns snd vaccine mandates.

Is this really the world we want to live in? All for a virus that nearly every single medical professional who is on the ground dealing with COVID has told me “use reasonable precautions. Wash your hand. This thing is completely off the tracks with regards to the fear people have. “.

For these reasons snd many others my family will not be getting the vaccine.


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What’s really scary is the same people that demand you have proof of vaccination are not concerned about having open boarders that allow people with zero medical records to flood the population.

 

[mtwarden]

I think there will be a fair number of occupations where there won’t be much choice in the matter (well I guess quitting would be a choice)- military, first line medical staff, first responders (emt, fire, leo), possibly teachers??? Others????

 

[Sccritterkiller]

I've seen the "Hasn't been proven to prevent transmission" argument a lot recently and I think it's kind of an empty claim. In most of these studies scientists aren't deliberately infecting anybody so there's really no way the could prove it prevents transmission. But if it's triggering an immune response in your body and preventing you from getting the disease, it's really hard to see how transmission could still be possible.

The Brits will have like 40K people vaccinated by the end of the week and 4 million by the end of the year. That's a pretty huge sample size. If we're looking at a spring roll-out for the vaccine here (to the general public), I'm thinking many of your concerns about vaccine effectiveness will be answered by then, one way or another.

Empty claim??? The CEO for Pfizer was interviewed on Dateline and he said we have no idea if it will prevent transmission it wasn't something they studied. I do agree maybe by next fall many of the questions will be answered. My opinion on getting the vaccine could change based on new data.

I do know one thing producing a vaccine that doesn't prevent transmissions and requires multiple does to be effective makes for great business model.....and we are all going to pay for it...reguardless if works or if you get the vaccine....

 

[Ozarkansas]

Empty claim??? The CEO for Pfizer was interviewed on Dateline and he said we have no idea if it will prevent transmission it wasn't something they studied. I do agree maybe by next fall many of the questions will be answered. My opinion on getting the vaccine could change based on new data.

Yeah, what I mean is that they didn't study if it prevented transmission- but it's very hard for me to see a way in which it fails to do so. Transmission is dependent on having a high viral load, a higher load generally correlates with more contagious stages of the disease. A vaccine would greatly reduce or eliminate viral load or else would not be effective at preventing the virus.
I take what the CEO said (that he was "Not certain" if it prevented transmission) to mean that they hadn't studied and confirmed it- that would be outside the scope of their efficacy trials- but if you're not producing enough virus to trigger a positive test you're not producing enough virus to be an efficient spreader. This virus would have to go against pretty much everything we know about disease transmission if vaccinated people were as effective at spreading it as infected people. (If any epidemiologists or Virologists want to pipe up on that, I would definitely defer to them).

I think we're on the same page for the most part though, if it is effective at preventing transmission we'll probably know based on the Uk's numbers by the time we have access to the vaccine here. If it isn't having an effect by then I would also be very skeptical of taking it.

 

[Sccritterkiller]

Yeah, what I mean is that they didn't study if it prevented transmission- but it's very hard for me to see a way in which it fails to do so. Transmission is dependent on having a high viral load, a higher load generally correlates with more contagious stages of the disease. A vaccine would greatly reduce or eliminate viral load or else would not be effective at preventing the virus.
I take what the CEO said (that he was "Not certain" if it prevented transmission) to mean that they hadn't studied and confirmed it- that would be outside the scope of their efficacy trials- but if you're not producing enough virus to trigger a positive test you're not producing enough virus to be an efficient spreader. This virus would have to go against pretty much everything we know about disease transmission if vaccinated people were as effective at spreading it as infected people. (If any epidemiologists or Virologists want to pipe up on that, I would definitely defer to them).

I think we're on the same page for the most part though, if it is effective at preventing transmission we'll probably know based on the Uk's numbers by the time we have access to the vaccine here. If it isn't having an effect by then I would also be very skeptical of taking it.

I have seen in some of the studies that you can still get Covid after the vaccination, think the study was in India, and folks still got Covid after getting the vaccine although symptoms were reduced and it was not as severe of symptoms. Seems to me if you can still get covid after the vaccine you can still spread it.....

 

[NDGuy]

Seems to me if you can still get covid after the vaccine you can still spread it.....

I will edit my comment if I can find links I am remembering but there has been evidence that:

Less/No symptoms=Less Contagious=Lower Spread

Also PRE-SYMPTOMATIC does not equal ASYMPTOMATIC big difference and something to watch for when reading articles.

 

[Ozarkansas]

I have seen in some of the studies that you can still get Covid after the vaccination, think the study was in India, and folks still got Covid after getting the vaccine although symptoms were reduced and it was not as severe of symptoms. Seems to me if you can still get covid after the vaccine you can still spread it.....

While I'm not familiar with the trials in India or which vaccine they used it's definitely true that you can still get the virus once vaccinated, and that if you do get the virus it is often less severe but you could still spread it. At least that's how it works with other diseases like the flu.
That being said those individuals who get a more mild case are counted in the 10% of the population for which a "90% effective" vaccine is considered ineffective. So if you vaccinated 100 people, 10% of them would still be able to catch or spread the virus, 90% would either be unable to spread it or very poor spreaders.
(those percentages are just examples you could make them 70-30 or 80-20).

 

[Evol]

NY looking for make vaccination mandatory for certain (most) people.

NY State Assembly Bill 2019-A11179

Requires a COVID-19 vaccine to be administered in accordance with the department of health's COVID-19 vaccination administration program and mandates vaccination in certain situations.

www.nysenate.gov

----

SECTION 2178. COVID-19 VACCINATION.
§ 2178. COVID-19 VACCINATION. 1. AT THE TIME A VACCINATION FOR COVID-
19 IS APPROVED BY THE UNITED STATES FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION'S
CENTER FOR BIOLOGICS EVALUATION AND RESEARCH VACCINE PRODUCT APPROVAL
PROCESS AND THE NEW YORK STATE CLINICAL ADVISORY TASK FORCE, SUCH VACCI-
NATION SHALL BE REQUIRED TO BE SAFELY AND EFFECTIVELY DISTRIBUTED IN
ACCORDANCE WITH THE DEPARTMENT'S COVID-19 VACCINATION ADMINISTRATION
PROGRAM.
2. ONCE THE UNITED STATES FOOD AND DRUG ADMINISTRATION'S CENTER FOR
BIOLOGICS EVALUATION AND RESEARCH AND THE NEW YORK STATE CLINICAL ADVI-
SORY TASK FORCE HAVE APPROVED THE SAFETY AND EFFECTIVENESS OF A COVID-19
VACCINATION AND PROMOTION AND DISTRIBUTION PLANS OF SUCH VACCINE HAVE
BEGUN PURSUANT TO THE DEPARTMENT'S COVID-19 VACCINATION ADMINISTRATION
PROGRAM, IF PUBLIC HEALTH OFFICIALS DETERMINE THAT RESIDENTS OF THE
STATE ARE NOT DEVELOPING SUFFICIENT IMMUNITY FROM COVID-19, THE DEPART-
MENT SHALL MANDATE VACCINATION FOR ALL INDIVIDUALS OR GROUPS OF INDIVID-
UALS WHO, AS SHOWN BY CLINICAL DATA, ARE PROVEN TO BE SAFE TO RECEIVE
SUCH VACCINE.
3. ANY INDIVIDUAL WHO HAS RECEIVED A MEDICAL EXEMPTION FROM A LICENSED
MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL SHALL NOT BE MANDATED TO RECEIVE THE COVID-19
VACCINE AND SHALL BE EXCLUDED FROM THE REQUIREMENTS OF THIS SECTION.
§ 2. This act shall take effect immediately.

EXPLANATION--Matter in ITALICS (underscored) is new; matter in brackets
[ ] is old law to be omitted.

 

[txhunter581]

Well you know what they say....when you assume....

Heres some quick facts since you seem to care:

-every restaurant where I live locally has been closed since march, 3 of them are permenently out of business because of it. I havn't been inside of a restaurant since march.

-every business in this town requires a mask to enter, so obviously I'm wearing a mask to go inside

-the post office requires a mask

-the hardware store requires a mask

-I don't wear a mask at the pumps because there's nobody near me.

Also, I'd never dream of taking an animal to a person to butcher it for me, I do that on my own in my garage, on my cutting tables.

So yes, I only wear a mask where its required. if you have a problem with that....then its your problem and only yours.

Also, I still stick by what I originally said, other peoples health is not my problem, I'm supposed to care about them, who cares about my mental health when I have to quarantine for 14 days when I'm not sick??? none of these people I'm supposed to care about have any empathy for me when I'm expected to sit in a hotel room for 14 days.

I indeed assumed wrong, and I apologize.

As far a butchering 100% your own, that is great. I do 98% of mine as well. But my wife wont eat mule deer unless it is flavored better than I know how to do. One of my clients is a deer processor and makes really good sausage, smoke rings etc and my wife really likes it. So he and I do some swapping when I get a mule deer. Even then, I don't leave him with the backstaps/tenderloins! But I process myself the 4-5 other deer I get every year. So shame me if you want in that regard, cause it won't bother me either.

 

[MattB]

The really scary thing is when places like restaurants, hotels, airlines etc won’t allow you to enter or use their services without proof you’ve had a vaccine.

Then it becomes a normalized event. Next year and the year after. With each new virus there will be lockdowns snd vaccine mandates.

Is this really the world we want to live in? All for a virus that nearly every single medical professional who is on the ground dealing with COVID has told me “use reasonable precautions. Wash your hand. This thing is completely off the tracks with regards to the fear people have. “.

For these reasons snd many others my family will not be getting the vaccine.


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Not sure when you were born, but I am 50 and this was the first pandemic of any significance I have lived through. What leads you to believe this sort of thing will become an annual event?

 

[FLAK]

A mandatory vaccine for a 99.5% survivability virus would make me
highly skeptical.

 

[NDGuy]

A mandatory vaccine for a 99.5% survivability virus would make me
highly skeptical.

Idk what people get stuck on this for.

It's not just about how many it kills, it's the unknown other issues it can cause in addition to being highly dangerous for people who are older or have pre-existing conditions. How many people in this thread know someone who has died from the flu? I'll bet that number is predominately 0-1. I know 3 people who have died from COVID in the last 2 months.

In addition to mortality and/or unknown issues the hospitalization rate is the biggest concern for this disease. It is taxing on our healthcare systems as we are currently seeing. When people can not get proper care, they can die. On top of that, how many people are going to die because they can't get a surgery or regular check up? How many have already or will lose a job, house, car etc because they couldn't work for a month?

 

[MattB]

A mandatory vaccine for a 99.5% survivability virus would make me
highly skeptical.

I hear a lot of folks comparing the low death rate of COVID to that if a flu or a cold, but I wonder whether they are taking into account the long-lasting health impacts that can result from COVID which is unlike what we see with the flu or a cold?

"Here you have a virus, SARS-CoV-2, which has already had a number of clinical and pathological surprises,” Offit said. “I mean, it causes vasculitis, which would have never been predicted. It rages in the summer months. It can cause strokes, heart attacks, kidney disease, liver disease, so it's a bit of a surprising virus, and we are going to meet it with a series of vaccine strategies.”

Offit: Three reasons Americans may hesitate to get a COVID-19 vaccine

Paul A. Offit, MD, director of the Vaccine Education Center at Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, said there are three likely reasons why Americans may be hesitant to receive a COVID-19 vaccine when one is available. In a presentation during the virtual Infectious Diseases in Children...

www.healio.com

 

[fwafwow]

Idk what people get stuck on this for.

It's not just about how many it kills, it's the unknown other issues it can cause in addition to being highly dangerous for people who are older or have pre-existing conditions. How many people in this thread know someone who has died from the flu? I'll bet that number is predominately 0-1. I know 3 people who have died from COVID in the last 2 months.

In addition to mortality and/or unknown issues the hospitalization rate is the biggest concern for this disease. It is taxing on our healthcare systems as we are currently seeing. When people can not get proper care, they can die. On top of that, how many people are going to die because they can't get a surgery or regular check up? How many have already or will lose a job, house, car etc because they couldn't work for a month?

I think that the thread is getting so unwieldy and long that members are understandably not inclined to read through all of the prior posts. (I'm not throwing stones - I've done the same.)

Hate to sound like a broken record, but I had and survived C-19 (it sucked for 3 weeks), but my lungs are eff'd up. No clue what the impact will be, or for how long.

 

[FLAK]

Idk what people get stuck on this for.

It's not just about how many it kills, it's the unknown other issues it can cause in addition to being highly dangerous for people who are older or have pre-existing conditions. How many people in this thread know someone who has died from the flu? I'll bet that number is predominately 0-1. I know 3 people who have died from COVID in the last 2 months.

In addition to mortality and/or unknown issues the hospitalization rate is the biggest concern for this disease. It is taxing on our healthcare systems as we are currently seeing. When people can not get proper care, they can die. On top of that, how many people are going to die because they can't get a surgery or regular check up? How many have already or will lose a job, house, car etc because they couldn't work for a month?

Which makes me question the long term effects of the vaccination even more.
And, BTW I know probably dozens of people who have had Covid.
None of which died.
Just my real world experience.

 

[NDGuy]

And, BTW I know probably dozens of people who have had Covid.
None of which died.

The point I am making is people saying the death rate is low enough to not be worried and that the virus is no worse than flu is misguided at best. It isn't just black and white with this damn bug.

 

[fwafwow]

And, BTW I know probably dozens of people who have had Covid.
None of which died.
Just my real world experience.

I'm not trying to argue or to pile on - the thread has been pretty heated lately. I will just try to say it in a slightly different way. Of those people who you know who got the virus and survived, there is a chance that some of them could have health problems of which even they are not aware. I pray that's not the case. But I'm in that boat and only found out because I had another unrelated medical issue (I floundered and crashed riding a bike) and now I know that I have lung problems from the virus. No clue what the long-term results will be, but I've got a problem I didn't have before.

I don't think you should change your view on the vaccine based on this point. I am leaning towards getting it, but I am also happy that I'm not at the front of the line. I also understand someone would not want to get it. Different strokes.

 

[NDGuy]

I'm not trying to argue or to pile on - the thread has been pretty heated lately. I will just try to say it in a slightly different way. Of those people who you know who got the virus and survived, there is a chance that some of them could have health problems of which even they are not aware. I pray that's not the case. But I'm in that boat and only found out because I had another unrelated medical issue (I floundered and crashed riding a bike) and now I know that I have lung problems from the virus. No clue what the long-term results will be, but I've got a problem I didn't have before.

I don't think you should change your view on the vaccine based on this point. I am leaning towards getting it, but I am also happy that I'm not at the front of the line. I also understand someone would not want to get it. Different strokes.

Hope all goes well for you friend.

What is your Doc saying about your newfound issues?

 

[fwafwow]

Hope all goes well for you friend.

What is your Doc saying about your newfound issues?

Thank you sir. None of my doctors (I've had a few recently from the accident) have said much, as I don't know that they know much. Someone at the hospital said, "Oh, we knew you previously had Covid before because of your chest x-ray." That was about it. I did an elk hunt in September and felt pretty winded at times, so that could have been from Covid and my lung issue. But that could also be because I was an out of shape POS. Based on my own internet medical research (ha! - something that I usually say should never be done), the term "ground glass opacities" seems to be a pretty broad term used in a variety of circumstances.

I guess just like some things from the bike accident, only time will tell.

 

[whaack]

Not sure when you were born, but I am 50 and this was the first pandemic of any significance I have lived through. What leads you to believe this sort of thing will become an annual event?

Because far more deadly viruses have been in the wild in previous years, except for this is the first time we’ve acted like this as a reaction.

We are now preconditioned as a society and a global society to react to every little virus this way. Do you actually think we’re going to go backwards from where were at now? Wearing masks will become a nearly ubiquitous thing not just an Asian countries but across the world. Shut downs and lockdowns will become the new normal whenever there’s a virus that could even potentially look like Covid.


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