The Problem With Hunting Clothing Brands Today

[Poser]

I think it partly comes from the climbing/mountaineering world that these hunting lines emulated in the first place, where slimmer fits do make sense. Baggy legs get caught on crampons, and bigger clothing just weighs more and takes longer to dry. Slimmer fit pants work better for alpine climbing, ice, skiing, etc. Modern fabrics like softshells, lycra, etc, have also played a role in allowing slimmer fits that you just couldn't do in older materials.

I'm sure fashion has played a partial role too, just look at men's suits now compared to the 90s.

I think the biggest factor in slimmer fit is, once Sitka first hit the market as the OG technical hunting apparel, the push was for the athletic aesthetic as a way to further separate the brand identity from the likes of Mossy Oak, Scent Blocker and virtually every hunting brand on the market that was geared exclusively towards Eastern whitetail hunting . We even saw Under Armor jump in the game for awhile as they saw the opportunity with the athletic aesthetic.

I personally prefer a more articulated fit vs baggy/boxy, but the 90s are definitely back in resort ski/snowboard fashion -huge hoodies/jackets, oversized pants etc. Though, the backcountry specific apparel still leans towards a more articulated fit. If nothing else, I don't want all that extra fabric when I'm trying to fit it in my pack.

 

[Mule3006Elk]

Keep it small. Keep it in the family. Etc. Challenge is growing the brand and keeping the small town feel attached to the brand. I met you all while hunting somewhere in ID. I won't say where. Seems like a good grounded group of guys. You and your 2 brothers.

TBH, if you have a VIP warranty along the lines of Vortex, I would be all over it. Full send. Certain components of clothing should not fail: zippers, buttons, etc. Holes/tears from use are expected but please sell patches of the same material so the consumer can extend the life of the item.

FL sent me ASAT material well after they discontinued ASAT. I used that material to extend the life of my pants which o/w would have been unusable d/t the large air conditioning vent that tore in the crotch. Those pants are now 12 y/o and still get some use. LOL

 

[Poser]

Certain components of clothing should not fail: zippers, buttons, etc.

How do you expect zippers and buttons not to fail?

 

[hibernation]

I think the biggest factor in slimmer fit is, once Sitka first hit the market as the OG technical hunting apparel, the push was for the athletic aesthetic as a way to further separate the brand identity from the likes of Mossy Oak, Scent Blocker and virtually every hunting brand on the market that was geared exclusively towards Eastern whitetail hunting .

You're dead on there, athletic aesthetic is a great way to put it. There's been a huge cultural shift in hunting media overall in the last ~15 years. Mossy oak and whitetails are old hat. It's all DIY OTC public land elk now! And you can't do that without running ridges, doing crossfit, and talking to your doctor about your special bloodwork.

 

[Ramem7mm]

I think the biggest factor in slimmer fit is, once Sitka first hit the market as the OG technical hunting apparel, the push was for the athletic aesthetic as a way to further separate the brand identity from the likes of Mossy Oak, Scent Blocker and virtually every hunting brand on the market that was geared exclusively towards Eastern whitetail hunting . We even saw Under Armor jump in the game for awhile as they saw the opportunity with the athletic aesthetic.

I personally prefer a more articulated fit vs baggy/boxy, but the 90s are definitely back in resort ski/snowboard fashion -huge hoodies/jackets, oversized pants etc. Though, the backcountry specific apparel still leans towards a more articulated fit. If nothing else, I don't want all that extra fabric when I'm trying to fit it in my pack.

I have some Underarmour Sweatshirts that have seen many days afield hunting ducks and geese and getting dirty and wet. They may be a little faded but barely show signs of wear. I like the Underarmour style of fit as well now, where I personally used to be on the heavier side so the form fitting clothes I didn't like and was always pulling at them but now I have slimmed down and I like the fitted shirts as they don't bother me and I feel better in them, just me though.

 

[Mule3006Elk]

How do you expect zippers and buttons not to fail?

I don't design clothes. Why would button or zipper failure be acceptable on hunting clothes?

Referring to my regular clothing that I wear all the time my buttons and zippers don't fail. Point is, if they do fail the item should be repaired or replaced. I don't consider that normal wear and tear.

I don't want to spend $150 plus on a jacket, wear it a few times, and have component failure. I will back a brand that backs their products.

 

[Mule3006Elk]

I have some Underarmour Sweatshirts that have seen many days afield hunting ducks and geese and getting dirty and wet. They may be a little faded but barely show signs of wear. I like the Underarmour style of fit as well now, where I personally used to be on the heavier side so the form fitting clothes I didn't like and was always pulling at them but now I have slimmed down and I like the fitted shirts as they don't bother me and I feel better in them, just me though.

Same. I have some UA cold gear from 2010 timeframe. No tears or anything. Impressive. Use them bird hunting to this day.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

The other aspect is the sheer lack of use the “hunting” clothing gets with the average user. Guys will say things like “Those pants have been excellent for me for 5 years now!” When in reality, that rebates to maybe 25-30 field days of use. In my opinion that is nowhere near enough field days to make an informed “opinion”.

That is like asking me about my old FL rain jacket that is like 8yrs old or something, it pretty much only gets worn when I am up in Alaska (half dozen fishing trips and a hunt) because its rarely needed in CO. So far so good.


Coincidentally @Brad@Argali you commented on the above mentioned jacket in front of the Best Western in Kodiak a few years back wondering if the zippers or such had held up iirc (we were day drinking waiting for an afternoon flight so I don't 100% recall, apologies if we were babbling some).

 

[Poser]

I don't design clothes. Why would button or zipper failure be acceptable on hunting clothes?

Referring to my regular clothing that I wear all the time my buttons and zippers don't fail. Point is, if they do fail the item should be repaired or replaced. I don't consider that normal wear and tear.

I don't want to spend $150 plus on a jacket, wear it a few times, and have component failure. I will back a brand that backs their products.

A zipper is a moving part. Every time you use it, there is a wear and tear effect the same as the starter on your vehicle.

A button is a stress point. Apply enough stress on it and it will fail.


Stress points and moving parts are all going to fail eventually. The thing with zippers on outdoor wear is that we are often using them in a rushed state -its cold, wet, we're wearing gloves, we're stacking as many layers as we can etc, all of which put more stress on the component. Most higher end brands are using the highest quality zippers available from what I've seen and they are also oversizing them. Even then, whenever I blow a slider, I always go the next size up.

If you're gonna be using outdoor gear hard, you need a set of zipper tools and some spare sliders in a utility drawer. It like having tools to replace the alternator on your vehicle. There is no zipper design on the market that can be guaranteed not to fail under long term or acute stress.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Its a niche to a degree but some blaze outer layers are nice for the states that require it and limit how much layer shuffling is needed when stopping to glass or in the rain, etc.

I have a lightweight orange eddie bauer (iirc) rain jacket that I normally carry around (versus the heavier FL jacket I mentioned above) that I can toss on in rain or wind here in CO without having to move my blaze vest. Similarly last winter I had a thread here seeking out a blaze puffy I could toss on easily when stopping to glass in the winter without shuffling my blaze vest. I ended up grabbing one from lands end that isn't anything special but suits the general need. Some of the mountaineering brands sometimes do a blaze(ish) color in things but other times its a burnt orange in reality. Like I said a niche product but handy for those that are required to be bright.

 

[Brad@Argali]

It’s got to be possible. I don’t expect synthetic-like durability, that’s while I put in the qualifier “some”. I know they will be prone to snags and pilling. Still, crotch blowouts and huge holes are avoidable. Maybe a merino-synthetic blend on the seat, thigh panels and/or knees panels. Like an Obsidian with some reinforced areas, vents, and quality construction (looking at you, FL)

That is like asking me about my old FL rain jacket that is like 8yrs old or something, it pretty much only gets worn when I am up in Alaska (half dozen fishing trips and a hunt) because its rarely needed in CO. So far so good.


Coincidentally @Brad@Argali you commented on the above mentioned jacket in front of the Best Western in Kodiak a few years back wondering if the zippers or such had held up iirc (we were day drinking waiting for an afternoon flight so I don't 100% recall, apologies if we were babbling some).

You had me at day drinking...

 

[yeky83]

Agreed with above from @Poser. If you can sow enough to do a patch on a crotch rip, you can easily obtain and replace zippers and buttons. Wanting an unlimited lifetime warranty for textile goods seems... unrealistic.

 

[Ajsomp]

I’ve gone the full gamut over the years now. For me - I won’t support a single hunting company because most are focused on lifestyle or their camo pattern over form and function. And the cost for what you get is excessive.

Things I look for these days -
-Functional multi-use items in solid colors. I want items I can use year round, not just take out of a box and put on like a uniform just for hunting. But I feel so many companies try to jam 100 pockets, zippers, etc which serve no purpose. I like where OV is headed with this.

-Sizing for people who workout. - I just want something that isn’t slim fit but is not the box fit wool pants. With options for tall tops for those of us with long torsos.

-I don’t care to pay for name alone. If a piece of equipment is worth it, it’s not expensive. But so many pieces are expensive just for the name.
-made in the US if at all possible. I get it, a lot of manufacturing is done overseas. But my career I’ve been issued top quality kit from the gov that is berry compliant. These same companies (Patagonia, OR, first spear, etc) have civilian lines which are made overseas. It’s possible to do so, it will just cost more (see above).

-values aligned with mine. I believe in using my dollars to support companies that align with my values and/or who actually support my activities. For example-I won’t buy gear from companies who are anti-2a.

 

[Brad@Argali]

Durability is a big one right off the bat. When you read reviews on clothing durability is usually the chief complaint when one is made. When the consumer pays as much as we do for these technical garments they should last for awhile and be designed to handle the abuse they will be put through. The Merino pant idea above is to me a classic example of a good idea that translates to a bad product. Merino is amazing and has a ton of benefits, but one quick walk through the brush and those pants are shredded and now you have bad reviews and a bad product.

Fit is another one and like mentioned before, fit is subjective. Whats not subjective is sizing consistency (looking at you KUIU). If you can keep your sizing the same it helps the consumer immensely. The fit isnt going to work for everyone, but if its the same every time its a lot easier to find you size and just buy product vs having to know certain products you need to size up or down.

Core line. The problem with most of these companies is saturation. They have too many niche products with extremely minor differences from similar products it makes it confusing. Early season, mid season, late season. Build a kit for each and call it a day. I dont need 6 different kind of mid season pants from dry to maybe some rain to pouring rain to snow to sitting to hiking, to full moon vs waning moon etc. This circles back to the fit now as you can offer additional sizing since you dont have 20 kinds of pants in your catalog. You can offer your early season pant in reg, short, and tall and then offer in regular/athletic or relaxed/loose fit.

And for the love of God design for function vs form. Hip vents are required. Front pockets that your knife wont fall out of are required. Front pockets you can actually get into when you have a knife clipped in it are required. Material that will take the abuse with reinforcing in the right places. Thumbholes are awesome. Integrated masks in otherwise awesome hoodies that cant be removed are not awesome. If you make a solid boxer brief like FL's Wick and put the seam right down the ass crack like FL did making it a G-String, you shouldnt be marketing boxer briefs.

I agree with a lot of that. The core product line should be relatively simple. Side zips need to be long enough to actually breathe, but without mesh they are annoying. Integrated masks sound great but are mostly annoying to me as they keep the hood from covering your face. Appreciate the comments.

 

[Brad@Argali]

I think the biggest factor in slimmer fit is, once Sitka first hit the market as the OG technical hunting apparel, the push was for the athletic aesthetic as a way to further separate the brand identity from the likes of Mossy Oak, Scent Blocker and virtually every hunting brand on the market that was geared exclusively towards Eastern whitetail hunting . We even saw Under Armor jump in the game for awhile as they saw the opportunity with the athletic aesthetic.

I personally prefer a more articulated fit vs baggy/boxy, but the 90s are definitely back in resort ski/snowboard fashion -huge hoodies/jackets, oversized pants etc. Though, the backcountry specific apparel still leans towards a more articulated fit. If nothing else, I don't want all that extra fabric when I'm trying to fit it in my pack.

To me athletic fit isn't a style thing but a functional consideration. Less fabric rubbing between my legs is quieter for bow hunting and will snag less on sharp objects while walking. For baselayers I find it's easier to layer midlayers and outlayers if my next to skin layers aren't baggy.

 

[Alpine4x4]

I agree with a lot of that. The core product line should be relatively simple. Side zips need to be long enough to actually breathe, but without mesh they are annoying. Integrated masks sound great but are mostly annoying to me as they keep the hood from covering your face. Appreciate the comments.

Oh they definitely need mesh, I dont need Cockleburs floating around in my pants

 

[TheTone]

Clothing pieces have become so niche and narrow focused it seems. I think there is a lot to be said for a small, well executed, versatile lineup of items. I mean Sitka’s first jacket was called the 90% because it was marketed as good for 90% of the time. Now have no idea how many jackets they make; yet I’m still using a 90% that is 16 or so years old.

Prices have gotten a bit much also in the last few years. I get that companies should be able to make a profit but it makes a person wonder where the money is going when you see a company sponsor a pile of influencers, film projects, giveaways, etc. I will absolutely admit I avoid buying from certain companies because I don’t want to help pay some hack influencer

 

[yfarm]

Despite their marketing, there isn’t a single business or industry that private equity enters that improves quality or customer service. Short term profit drives that business. I understand the quandary that owners face when they want out of the business they have built.

 

[Brad@Argali]

I’ve gone the full gamut over the years now. For me - I won’t support a single hunting company because most are focused on lifestyle or their camo pattern over form and function. And the cost for what you get is excessive.

Things I look for these days -
-Functional multi-use items in solid colors. I want items I can use year round, not just take out of a box and put on like a uniform just for hunting. But I feel so many companies try to jam 100 pockets, zippers, etc which serve no purpose. I like where OV is headed with this.

-Sizing for people who workout. - I just want something that isn’t slim fit but is not the box fit wool pants. With options for tall tops for those of us with long torsos.

-I don’t care to pay for name alone. If a piece of equipment is worth it, it’s not expensive. But so many pieces are expensive just for the name.
-made in the US if at all possible. I get it, a lot of manufacturing is done overseas. But my career I’ve been issued top quality kit from the gov that is berry compliant. These same companies (Patagonia, OR, first spear, etc) have civilian lines which are made overseas. It’s possible to do so, it will just cost more (see above).

-values aligned with mine. I believe in using my dollars to support companies that align with my values and/or who actually support my activities. For example-I won’t buy gear from companies who are anti-

The endless pockets is a pet peave of mine. Simple, functional pockets that work is the ticket.

 

[Mule3006Elk]

A zipper is a moving part. Every time you use it, there is a wear and tear effect the same as the starter on your vehicle.

A button is a stress point. Apply enough stress on it and it will fail.


Stress points and moving parts are all going to fail eventually. The thing with zippers on outdoor wear is that we are often using them in a rushed state -its cold, wet, we're wearing gloves, we're stacking as many layers as we can etc, all of which put more stress on the component. Most higher end brands are using the highest quality zippers available from what I've seen and they are also oversizing them. Even then, whenever I blow a slider, I always go the next size up.

If you're gonna be using outdoor gear hard, you need a set of zipper tools and some spare sliders in a utility drawer. It like having tools to replace the alternator on your vehicle. There is no zipper design on the market that can be guaranteed not to fail under long term or acute stress.

You are not wrong. Button was a poor reference. Those can easily be sewed on.

Argali sells quality products.
I highly doubt zipper failure would be a thing with their product line.

Marketing, build an insanely durable product, that you know will rarely fail, and build that guarantee in your product line. Maybe not VIP as Vortex but a reasonable time frame that is better than industry standard. That will sell product. I'm not referring to holes/tears from routine use.

This is what I would find important in a hunting apparel product line that already checked all the boxes I'm looking for. If I'm looking at FL, Sitka, KUIU, assuming they all fit well with a similar price point etc., I will buy the brand which backs their product. I would not be surprised if Argali fits this profile based on my experience with the owner.

I'm sure Brad will knock it out of the park.