The Problem With Hunting Clothing Brands Today

[feanor]

One of the most prevalent threads here is the quest for the perfect early to mid season hunting pant. Most of the time the Kutanas are mentioned as the pinnacle- but at a premium price.

But then half of the comments after that are complaining about the waist size and thigh fit ( warranted).

Then the prana zions are next- at a lesser cost. Most seem to agree that the fit is looser but more consistent, but no hip vents.

I think designing a pants like these for the right price, you could have a staple product at your company. lightweight, hip vents, good value, multiple colors.

 

[WRO]

I've done that as well. Which honestly is a sad statement about where we are at. I have 2 pairs of Keb's, but they use cotton and frankly aren't very durable. Arcteryx makes some great pieces, as does Patagonia. But neither makes a full kit that is designed for what I want in a kit as the design purpose is entirely different. Arcteryx also seams to be transitioning into a fashio brand, IMO.

I can shred a pair of Sitka pants in about 10 days of bird hunting, I get 40+ out of a pair of kebs, then I send them back and get them patched up for free and get another 25 days.


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[Wprinkle]

My opinion/ which is probably not the majority aside from Fit/Form/Function. (I'm built like the middle dude on the evolutionary chart) but.. I don't want baggy fitting clothes but it would be nice to turn my upper body, or be in a awkward shooting position and not be constricted to the point I cant breathe. . Pocket location: I hate when pack belts cover the pockets on a jacket. Zip vents with mesh!! Extended fly on pants. (It's hard to dig 1 inch of peter out of 3 inches of layers through a 2 inch zipper)

Fit/Durability and quite over camo and over designed.

 

[Vrybusy]

When it comes to new hunting clothing, what I see as some of the most important factors are; fit, function, price, and practicality. Flexibility in sizing truly matters - hunters come in all shapes and sizes, and the clothing should accommodate that reality. Price should be fair and reasonable, reflecting the value of the product without unnecessary markups. Functionality is also key: the gear should serve its purpose in real hunting conditions without being overloaded with excessive or gimmicky features. Oftentimes, a well thought out, simple design is far more effective and reliable in the field than something over-engineered. Practical, durable, and thoughtfully designed clothing will always outperform flashier alternatives when it really counts. I also agree with what was stated earlier about some or at least one of the high-end mountaineering companies... they seem to be more of a fashion statement than a function statement today. I see them sacrificing the qualities of what made the brand, not improving upon them. As it pertains to camo patterns, I dont think it matters much. Myself along with many others do just fine with solids. There are plenty of crazy, outrageouse camo patterns out there sold as the next best thing.

 

[JF_Idaho]

Fit is a big deal. I love the Attack pants and wear a 34. I'll get one pair and it's like a 35 (which is ok for me) and another pair that's like a 33 (not ok for me).

I use the attack pants as an example because they are great pants and you know what you get as far as function and durability. But with the fit issues it's hit or miss. Quality control is paramount.

 

[hibernation]

Solid colors are great, especially for pants. I can justify spending more on clothing if it's easier to use outside of hunting seasons. Couldn't care less about camo during most rifle seasons, anyway.

 

[TheCougar]

I recently reviewed a lot of jackets for function, and found the big name brands did very well compared to cheaper brands (not surprising the cheapest jacket was the worst in performance) but i was shocked at the first lite offering. It performed the worst of all the big name brands.

It seems the big name brands still are creating good functional gear for hunting purposes, and if they can add some different lines and still he good, why not?

Having said that, i have heard plus and minus on first lite for a while (since it was acquired by someone) but have been pleased with their merino briefs. That is the only stuff i have had from them for a long time.

I used to be a huge first lite fan. Their stuff has just gotten terrible over the years. I hate to say that. I still have ASAT pieces that I just can’t part with, even though they are coming apart at the seams. Their earlier stuff was better than their current offerings. Their sizing is all over the map. Durability sucks for anything that has merino in it.

 

[bergie]

How important is being quiet, fit, function, price? How important are feature sets?

If you hit it out of the park on (in this order; function, fit, durability, quiet) then you can name your price, IMO. I understand the guys who are most concerned with price, I once was myself. The market is saturated with cheaper options that will work decently. A high end piece of clothing that does everything I want and lasts a long time is worth the investment.

As has been stated above, I agree that a company really only needs to make a few pieces. Give me a good pair of pants, a puffy, a jacket and base layers and what else do I need? Sure rain gear is important, but 'breathable' rain gear exists only with sasquatch and the loch ness monster. Heavy insulation pieces are nice for whitetail hunting (I do that too) but you can get away with the cheapest of the cheap Michelin man style outer wear sitting in a stand all day.

A dedicated western hunting line that focuses on a few pieces and does them really well would be pretty cool, you know like that company from Ketchum used to be. It took me buying thousands of dollars of their gear to realize that I really don't need much more than a few select pieces, as those are what I wear 95% of the time anyway. Am I drier in their raingear than frogtoggs? Hard to tell if moisture is entering from the outside or just keeping what I generate in. Am I warmer with the giant whitetail line than I was in my hand me down snow gear, nah not really and its just as heavy to pack into the stand.

I don't blame anyone for selling to a big corp though, I would do EXACTLY the same thing. Hell, I am doing the same thing, it just comes in the form of a 401(k) and IRA before I give my employer theat 55 (love the company, but I am not working with the intent of working a day longer than I have to).

The last thing I'll say in my rant is I am old enough now to realize that I hate companies that have influencers. Last year I was in the market for a new knife and the hype almost made me buy a MKC before I did some more research and bought a Carbon from you guys. Based out of Idaho, no flat bill influencers that swap brands on a whim, oh and this knife flat out works made me loyal to Argali. When my Cimmaron fails I'll own an Absaroka.

Oh and please no GD zippers on back pockets of pants.

 

[TheCougar]

For me, durability, performance, and fit. It’s hard to focus on a few products that make everyone happy. I think the real question is how do you separate yourself from everyone else? There is no shortage of hunting clothing brands. I have clothing from all over the place in solids and mismatched patterns because no one company makes the best of everything.

For me, the surest sign of a company that has lost its way and is no longer focused on the right thing is “new camo” offerings. Camo literally doesn’t crack the top 10 in most guy’s priority lists. Vias - Verde - Valo… Fusion - Cypher - whatever - whatever. Meanwhile Kuiu still has pants that fit like skinny jeans and FL has products fall apart after a single hunt and continual sizing issues.

 

[TheCougar]

Please make some early - mid-season merino pants with some stretch, durability, and vents. Quiet, no crotch funk after 3 days, and can withstand some abuse.

 

[TaperPin]

Private equity has been the downfall of many small companies across all sorts of industries, and in the past ten years it’s become such a cliche that one of the first things I wonder about when a good business starts doing wacko things, is did a kid inherit the business or was it sold to private equity, both are bad signs.

I was approached by a private equity guy leading the search for victims, not because he would invest in anything I do, but I have access to a lot of people. I was quite curious what their group was all about so it was fun picking his brain and he was quite open about his backers. This was essentially an investing club for a group of less well known small time tech bros. They vote on what locations or industries they want to focus on and turn their project manager loose. They don’t care about the quality of what’s made, growing the company, what happens to the employees, or town it’s in, just profit after flipping it. I was quite naive up to that point how invasive these guys are even at relatively low dollar amounts.

 

[Brad@Argali]

First lite was on the right track in the beginning with Scott and Kenton, but I dont blame them for selling. That was the plan all along. Ive known Scott for over 20yrs, long before FL was even an idea in his head. When he started it and I got some of the first items long before they sold anything to consumers back in 07', the goal from day 1 was to build a western clothing company based off merino wool, then sell and enjoy life. Which they both are doing. I have multiple friends who worked for the company in the original days who are no longer there due to the Meateater ways and takeover. Its a corporation based on making money. Now that they seem to spend more focus on whitetail and other shi* that was never the original message, I have a hard time wanting to support the company anymore. I think the hard thing is, when it gets into creating gear, consumers keep wanting to see more and more, and expansion which has pushed brands to go away from quality and the original focus of western hunting.

I personally find myself wearing solid colors almost always. The fad of creating new camo etc, is just wasted money IMO. Solids have killed animals for decades. I feel like you could save money focusing on the actual gear and how it functions instead of worrying about creating new camo patterns for one. Lightweight and ability to handle sweat such as Merino is definitely an important quality especially for backcountry hunters who dont change clothes daily I think. I also think with the prices of most the main brands now adays all pretty relatively close to each other for similar items, durability is very important. My FL 308 pants barely lasted a full scouting trip last year before tearing when i sat down on some rocks to glass. I understand wear and tear, but its not like it was razor sharp rocks, it was just scree gravel. So I would say including durability in the areas that see more abuse, would be important in keeping customers happy when they dont have torn gear after normal hunting use. For pants, i really like a more stretch material for comfort, and I also like the Prana zion type belt system that is part of the pant, cause i hate wearing a belt under a heavy pack if dont need to.

I guess the hard part is deciding what you can create that hasnt been done with the materials that are out there now adays. Your brand has a great following due to the time and effort you have put into everything so far, so Im sure you have some great ideas, its just harder now adays when you have so many people trying to be in the industry and "create" something.

I was a FL guy for many years and wore it exclusively. Scott and Kenton are world class humans and I deeply respect and like both of them. And like I said, I would never fault anyone for selling their company. But the company has changed a lot since it sold. The fact that they aren't in charge anymore is my point, which is not a dig on either of them. I still have friends over there and my comments aren't meant to mean that I have any ill will towards the brand.

There is a lot that can be done to focus on the western hunter. Almost every company I know of makes at least one great piece if not several.

Durability is tough, as you can't have the lightest and the most durable, but I think you hit the nail on the head when you mentioned how you deal with it. There certainly has to be a reasonableness to what you warranty, but I do think there is a balance to be had between durability, stretch, noise, etc. Thanks for your comments.

 

[Brad@Argali]

Please make some early - mid-season merino pants with some stretch, durability, and vents. Quiet, no crotch funk after 3 days, and can withstand some abuse.

Why merino? I'm open to it, but merino is so fragile, that the only way to make it durable is to use a nylon blend of at least 40% nylon, which at that point negates all of the benefits of merino. I'm listening but just curious what it is about merino for pants that you like, because it's tough to make anything durable out of lightweight merino.

 

[Brad@Argali]

One of the most prevalent threads here is the quest for the perfect early to mid season hunting pant. Most of the time the Kutanas are mentioned as the pinnacle- but at a premium price.

But then half of the comments after that are complaining about the waist size and thigh fit ( warranted).

Then the prana zions are next- at a lesser cost. Most seem to agree that the fit is looser but more consistent, but no hip vents.

I think designing a pants like these for the right price, you could have a staple product at your company. lightweight, hip vents, good value, multiple colors.

I also consider this to be the holy grail quest, and I think you might like what we have to offer on the matter. More to come in about a month on that.

 

[Texasbuckeye]

I dont have much experience with them, but the few pieces of stone glacier i own have kind of fit this bill, and it isnt the most expensive stuff out there.
The new headwall jacket is a pretty good performer. Not sure if their praxis pants are similar but i am guessing they are.

I do see some of the pther brands offering solids now, which is good. I agree camo is pretty useless in most if not all hunting situations. There is so much more to hunting success than camo.

 

[Brad@Argali]

I've always been curious what the markup is, but I don't expect you post it. Companies need to turn a profit for obvious reasons but I wonder what the margin actually is.

Example, hunting company A sells its logo T shirts for $10, company B sells theirs for $35? Where does the huge difference come from?

Great question. Honestly, I wonder the same thing when it comes to some of the products we make. For example, I know how much grade 2 titanium costs, and when I see a titanium stove at sub $400, I can't fathom how it pencils out unless the material is just cheap (i.e. not grade 2). But, there's a lot I don't know!

 

[Brad@Argali]

My opinion/ which is probably not the majority aside from Fit/Form/Function. (I'm built like the middle dude on the evolutionary chart) but.. I don't want baggy fitting clothes but it would be nice to turn my upper body, or be in a awkward shooting position and not be constricted to the point I cant breathe. . Pocket location: I hate when pack belts cover the pockets on a jacket. Zip vents with mesh!! Extended fly on pants. (It's hard to dig 1 inch of peter out of 3 inches of layers through a 2 inch zipper)

Fit/Durability and quite over camo and over designed.

Fit for the wide range of human bodies is very difficult to get perfect. But, at the very least making waist sizing consistent is not an insurmountable task. I'm with you on zip vents with mesh and on zippers.

 

[swagner97]

I understand why many hunting brands sell out, but I appreciate the few hunting brands left, like Argali, that are still completely hunter driven, so thank you! I'm excited to see this conversation start! While I agree that many non hunting brands often have better quality sometimes even at a more competitive price, I still would rather support a hunting company.

As far as priorities go for me:
-Fit
This is huge but also difficult since we all have different body types beyond standard measurements. I think offering clothes with standard measurements but relaxed, athletic and slim fit for example for both tops and bottoms would be nice kinda like the different fits of jeans that have the same measurements.

-Durability/Weight
Like someone else said it's a trade off between weight and durability. I don't need kevlar clothing but having pants that don't rip easily is nice. I think a focus on durability for clothes typically worn as a moving outer layer is important vs lightweight for extra warmth layers.

-Quietness
Less important for me as I do more rifle hunting, but having at least a quiet archery lineup would be good. I think a good fit without a lot of excess material makes clothing quiet.

-Features
I want big thigh/hip vents along with removable knee pads and a few pockets.

-Color
As others have said I think solids are the way to go. Easy to mix with owned camo and nice to be able to wear when doing other outdoor activities.

-Production
While I appreciate American made clothing, I think if the quality and price combination is better somewhere else I personally don't see an issue with it. If it can be made in the US with just as good quality at a similar price then that would be one thing, but it seems like the current line up for American made hunting clothing is not too popular, and I think there is a reason for that.

 

[Brad@Argali]

Fit is a big deal. I love the Attack pants and wear a 34. I'll get one pair and it's like a 35 (which is ok for me) and another pair that's like a 33 (not ok for me).

I use the attack pants as an example because they are great pants and you know what you get as far as function and durability. But with the fit issues it's hit or miss. Quality control is paramount.

Totall agree.

 

[SteveAndTheCrigBoys]

Elaborating on fit, specifically pants, I'd like to see more SKU's in a pant line than multiple lines with different cuts. Short, Regular, Tall lengths in common waist sizes with something like a regular and athletic cut option. Not sure if that's asking for too much, it might not make sense business wise.

It's frustrating to find a pant with specs that are perfect but don't fit, then another pant from that company does fit with less ideal specs. They come out with a new pant line, now I have no idea if it'll fit or not. This has led me to not trying other pant lines and just sticking with what I know fits.

Also, cuff thumbholes are overrated and excessive. Now the sleeves are 2" longer than they need to be and all that bunches up around the wrist. It's not that hard to grab the cuff to keep it in place when putting on another layer...FL's design is terrible. The GoHunt Approach thumbhole design is fantastic though, I don't mind the thumbholes on that piece.