Point Creep - is there any light at the end of the tunnel?

[I hunt_dm3]

That's not even a valid argument. There are plenty of opportunities for people to hunt every year in many states regardless when they were born or whether they want to collect and use points. My middle daughter was born in 2000 and wasn't even eligible to collect points or hunt until 2012 and already has had a great successful bull elk hunt, and multiple other hunts. My youngest daughter is only 14 and drew a ML elk tag this year, and has other opportunities as well if she wants them. And that's just in one state. Heck, I could go to Idaho every year and hunt OTC if I could fit it in with my hunts just in CO every year. Plenty of opportunity.

But as I stated earlier, the problem arises for some people when they fixate on one particular unit or tag that is most definitely out of reach for them. Heck, those tags are out of reach for 99.9999% of the population including myself. As Wapitibob has stated a few times already.......if they can't figure out the math or the writing on the wall, then we're of no help to them either.

But your daughters will never reach max points because they started in the game too late. That is my issue with the points game, it’s not about hunting opportunities, there are plenty of opportunities, but the point game only benefits those who were old enough to play when it started.

 

[Marble]

You kind of avoided the question.... Does the it seem equitable to you to allocate 4x the amount of tags to people that entered the draw the first year? Keeping in mind that most will likely die without ever drawing a sheep tag in the max points pool? But yet you get to try every year for decades and decades with 4x more tags allocated to your pool?

I dont know anything about sheep tags or care.

I know if I keep waiting in line then eventually I may get a shot. Or I might not. It's my decision to spend my money on the gamble.

But until then I'm going to hunt wherever I can and enjoy the hobby that takes up most of my free thoughts.

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[I hunt_dm3]

I dont know anything about sheep tags or care.

I know if I keep waiting in line then eventually I may get a shot. Or I might not. It's my decision to spend my money on the gamble.

But until then I'm going to hunt wherever I can and enjoy the hobby that takes up most of my free thoughts.

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You prefer the waiting in line verse having a random shot every year? You may or may not draw in your lifetime either way.

 

[Marble]

You prefer the waiting in line verse having a random shot every year? You may or may not draw in your lifetime either way.

I do have random shot every year. 20 % is pure random.

35 tags are given out for the bull tag i want. 5 are given to random people, 30 go to people with max points.

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[CorbLand]

But until then I'm going to hunt wherever I can and enjoy the hobby that takes up most of my free thoughts.

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You can do this and still advocate for a change.

 

[204guy]

Holy hell, some of you guys defending the points game don't even understand the game. At this point in time there doesn't seem to be any kind of logical defense for the vast majority of the schemes. seems to come down to greed for those who got or will get their's and $$$$ for the states.

 

[wapitibob]

But your daughters will never reach max points because they started in the game too late. That is my issue with the points game, it’s not about hunting opportunities, there are plenty of opportunities, but the point game only benefits those who were old enough to play when it started.

Points benefit everybody that has them. The only state I got in on the ground floor was WY and I've drawn on points in UT, AZ, and multiple times in WY, and OR. All those draws were from the max pool for the specific hunt but were far from the max number of points a person could have had.

 

[alecvg]

I blame BHA

 

[I hunt_dm3]

Points benefit everybody that has them. The only state I got in on the ground floor was WY and I've drawn on points in UT, AZ, and multiple times in WY, and OR. All those draws were from the max pool for the specific hunt but were far from the max number of points a person could have had.

Boomers gonna boom I’m done arguing facts the people refuse to accept.

 

[Fatcamp]

Funny how that works, eh?

Wait, are you a snowflake if you have either a manbun or a 6.5CM or do you have to have both at the same time... asking for a friend?

2/4 on that list is automatic snowflake status.

 

[5MilesBack]

You make it seem as tho the people collecting points don’t ever apply. It’s when they apply that the creep happens, and there are thousands of people playing the points game, myself included. Please take the time to listen to the podcast, it sheds a lot of light on this issue and will hopefully he’ll you understand what I am saying.

What you're talking about is secondary to the real problem. The real problem is the huge increase in demand for tags........all tags. But yes, when enough people with higher points "dump their points" on a lesser unit, it does have an effect on point creep. But them finally dumping their points is a "result" of the point creep.....not the main cause of it.

 

[5MilesBack]

But your daughters will never reach max points because they started in the game too late. That is my issue with the points game, it’s not about hunting opportunities, there are plenty of opportunities, but the point game only benefits those who were old enough to play when it started.

You're making an assumption that everyone HAS to reach max points for some reason or is even entitled to max points (whatever max points means). My daughters could care less about "max points" because those units are out of reach. I was born decades ago and will never reach max points. That's not even an argument, let alone a valid one.

And to say that "the points game only benefits those who were old enough to play when it started" is flatly wrong. I benefit from it every time I use my points on a tag. My daughters have already benefited from it as well. Someone who just turned 12 this year can also benefit from the points game if they start collecting them.

You seem to be one of those guys that thinks they have to have "max points" to have any benefit at all. That's completely untrue. Yes, you have to have "enough" points to draw whatever tag it is that you're applying for (or get lucky in the hybrid draws). If you don't have enough points then yes, you have to make a decision........keep collecting points, or dump them on a different unit. Wow, what a tragedy......no benefit there at all.

 

[Gobbler36]

It’s our own fault because this industry has painted western hunting as the end all be all of “why I hunt” or some other bullshit line they use on Instagram to pimp products, but with all the hype and post of “steep and deep” and western hunting it boils to a pretty simple equation of more demand is going to mean less and less opportunity. Until we address habitat loss from development and the fad of hunting dies off and we have less demand. It’s only gonna get worse. Just gotta hope your state thinks of its residents first no matter where you’re at

 

[I hunt_dm3]

You're making an assumption that everyone HAS to reach max points for some reason or is even entitled to max points (whatever max points means). My daughters could care less about "max points" because those units are out of reach. I was born decades ago and will never reach max points. That's not even an argument, let alone a valid one.

And to say that "the points game only benefits those who were old enough to play when it started" is flatly wrong. I benefit from it every time I use my points on a tag. My daughters have already benefited from it as well. Someone who just turned 12 this year can also benefit from the points game if they start collecting them.

You seem to be one of those guys that thinks they have to have "max points" to have any benefit at all. That's completely untrue. Yes, you have to have "enough" points to draw whatever tag it is that you're applying for (or get lucky in the hybrid draws). If you don't have enough points then yes, you have to make a decision........keep collecting points, or dump them on a different unit. Wow, what a tragedy......no benefit there at all.

I have points in multiple states, I have not used any of those points to draw tags and I kill quality game year in and year out. I am advocating for people who want to get into hunting or are coming of age. They should not suffer for the selfishness of the older generation and a broken points system. I can tell you will never be able to understand how much of a negative the point system can have on the future of hunting so I’m gonna stop arguing. Some boomers are just gonna boom

 

[cal30_sniper]

Boomers gonna boom I’m done arguing facts the people refuse to accept.

Maybe try broadening your conceptual horizon before going straight to insults on your first week here?

I live in a 100% random draw state, and benefit EVERY year due to the fact that a neighboring state has a very structured point system that is extremely predictable to leverage for an almost-guaranteed draw annually.

 

[I hunt_dm3]

Maybe try broadening your conceptual horizon before going straight to insults on your first week here?

I live in a 100% random draw state, and benefit EVERY year due to the fact that a neighboring state has a very structured point system that is extremely predictable to leverage for an almost-guaranteed draw annually.

Broadening my conceptual horizon, haha yeah it’s me that needs to do that. I have yet to see any actual facts as to why point system are good for hunting and how it benefits new and old hunters alike. People who deal with draw odds and point systems for a living say they are bad for hunting, the live and breathe it everyday. You’re right about the insults, that’s on me and I don’t like being like that and will do better.

 

[cal30_sniper]

I have yet to see any actual facts as to why point system are good for hunting and how it benefits new and old hunters alike.

Reference my previous post on how this mid-30-something-nowhere-near-a-boomer benefits from some states having a very predictable points system. I benefit from points systems, as do many others who are looking for a guaranteed decent-quality hunt every couple of years.

Not all of us are trophy sheep hunters. Some of us don't like the frequent dry holes that come from completely random draws. I know, because I'm a resident in a state that does that and it's impossible to plan ahead.

 

[I hunt_dm3]

Reference my previous post on how this mid-30-something-nowhere-near-a-boomer benefits from some states having a very predictable points system. I benefit from points systems, as do many others who are looking for a guaranteed decent-quality hunt every couple of years.

Not all of us are trophy sheep hunters. Some of us don't like the frequent dry holes that come from completely random draws. I know, because I'm a resident in a state that does that and it's impossible to plan ahead.

Can you do me a huge favor and listen to the podcast I mention prior. Hunt Backcountry episode 269, you only need to listen to the first 15 to 20 minutes. And then answer this question, are preference system really sustainable and the best option to control big game hunting opportunities?

I will benefit from the points game for the next 5 years as I have my hunts planned out and know my odds of drawing are near %100, I just don’t think they are sustainable is all.

 

[MuleyFever]

.

I have yet to see any actual facts as to why point system are good for hunting and how it benefits new and old hunters alike.

A point system benefits hunters by giving them the ability to plan and the ability to know where they are in the game. It may also be good for hunting in that people invest in the opportunity to draw a tag. If I know that I can hunt an area every 3-4 years then I am motivated to stay in the game. If I know I can draw a tag every 3-4 years in multiple different states then I can plan for a rotation so I am hunting every year.

If every state was 100% random I would have no idea and I could go many years without a tag at all. I may just decide to not apply because I want to actually plan my vacation time so maybe I book a fishing trip instead or just plan an awesome backpacking trip or whatever.

As far as younger people the same applies. A kid not drawing a tag in a random draw for a few years will be no different than a kid buying a point for a couple of years then knowing they will be going hunting. Also, there are a lot of youth opportunities to get kids hunting.

 

[cal30_sniper]

Can you do me a huge favor and listen to the podcast I mention prior. Hunt Backcountry episode 269, you only need to listen to the first 15 to 20 minutes. And then answer this question, are preference system really sustainable and the best option to control big game hunting opportunities?

I will benefit from the points game for the next 5 years as I have my hunts planned out and know my odds of drawing are near %100, I just don’t think they are sustainable is all.

I listened to that podcast in it's entirety the week it dropped. Hunting podcasts are the primary thing I listen to on my drive back and forth to work.

There was another very good article done, I believe on the RokBlog itself, that discussed how the sweet spot for points was in the 4-5 point range. Building beyond that seems pointless to me, but it's a free country.

I'm not a trophy hunter, and have no interest in waiting event 10 years to draw a tag, much less 20. I could care less about creep for the top hunts. As was already mentioned in this thread, people chasing those hunts only make my lower-point draws that much easier.

Having a point system in some states allows me to plan at least 1 or 2 hunts annually while throwing my hat in for other random draws or long shots. I've drawn something in CO every year I've applied. Not so much in my random draw home state. I fail to see the unsustainability argument that some have made. If point systems are unsustainable, so is hunting in general. Point creep is purely a symptom of supply outstripping demand, and it's not like switching to complete random draw makes that conflict go away. It just means your draws become that much more unpredictable.

Let's also not forget that points don't go forever. People age and die out, and those points don't get inherited.