Point Creep - is there any light at the end of the tunnel?

[mproberts]

My point was more that the term "general season" is not universal across states.

There is no split in Utah between draw and general season unless you are strictly referring to elk. For deer there is Limited Entry and General Season both require you to apply for tags.

This is part of the problem when people from different states argue for or against things. Most people use their home state as the base and dont understand that not every state does it the way they do.

Appreciate the input and I'm sure we could dig into the minutiae of it, but I do get there are drastic difference between what "general" means.. weather that's pure otc, tag caps, kill quotas, or just easier to draw tags... but it normally denotes a system that provides drastically more opportunity to hunt.

Overall I'm not super upset with the systems in place for deer and elk. Those systems still allow me to hunt western states about as much as I can a year. While also allowing me to plan out future hunts and build towards more quality hunts simply due to my ability to only hunt a set amount each year. I get more upset with the bonus or preference point systems for tags that most won't ever draw in a lifetime.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

So to summarize...

States need to change how they allocate tags to accommodate the "snowflake" hunters out there.

 

[CorbLand]

So to summarize...

States need to change how they allocate tags to accommodate the "snowflake" hunters out there.

So if someone looks at something, says this needs to change, and advocate for that they are a "snowflake?"

If that is the case, the entire idea of a public process is negated.

 

[Marble]

It's worse here in CA, where there is little movement due to lack of tags. Most here with max points for sheep and elk, will die with max points. It's kind of hard to justify having a point system when so little are rewarded by it. Of course some will make it, maybe enough to keep the illusion of hope alive and cash flowing in to the State.

I disagree. I've been putting in since the beginning and i am max on Elk, one short on antelope. So in the next few years if i choose to put in for the hunt i want, i have a very good chance to get it.

CA also puts about 20% of those tags on a pure random. Which means everyone has a chance every year. I've know a couple of friends that have been drawn for sheep and elk with less than 2 points. That is different than most states.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

 

[Marble]

Why not? Tags are limited and demand is far greater than supply.

Exactly.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

 

[MuleyFever]

So if someone looks at something, says this needs to change, and advocate for that they are a "snowflake?"

Only if you disagree with them. Or if they are Democrats. Or if they have a manbun and a 6.5 CM.

 

[I hunt_dm3]

The Hunt Backcountry podcast #269 with Jerrod Lile from Huntin Fool has a lot of good information. Preference draws only work if there are enough tags to continually purge the max point holders. Otherwise the point creep will take over, it’s only a matter of time. I don’t feel most states can sustain the level of tags it would require to have a preference system (bonus or preference points), that is why I lean towards random draws.

 

[CorbLand]

Only if you disagree with them. Or if they are Democrats. Or if they have a manbun and a 6.5 CM.

Funny how that works, eh?

Wait, are you a snowflake if you have either a manbun or a 6.5CM or do you have to have both at the same time... asking for a friend?

 

[mproberts]

I disagree. I've been putting in since the beginning and i am max on Elk, one short on antelope. So in the next few years if i choose to put in for the hunt i want, i have a very good chance to get it.

CA also puts about 20% of those tags on a pure random. Which means everyone has a chance every year. I've know a couple of friends that have been drawn for sheep and elk with less than 2 points. That is different than most states.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

You got in on the ground floor and have been applying for almost 20 years and you still are single digit odds for almost every tule elk hunt in the state as a resident. I think that literally proves his point that its hard to justify having a point system when so little are rewarded. You were lucky enough to get in on the ground floor and you still might not draw the tag you want.

Does it seem equitable to allocate 4x more tags for people that were lucky enough to have been able to apply the first year? Like I'm in my mid 30s and I legally wasn't allowed to apply that first year due to age, so because of that I'm subject to a system where I almost certainly will never reach the max points pool and get the benefit of 4x greater tag allocation? The sheep draw is the most stark example of this.. there are 27 tags allocated a year and 1,689 people in the max points pool.

 

[5MilesBack]

I think a mix of quality general tags and random draw could work. Gives hunters opportunity to hunt and draw a good tag.

Colorado has really high point tags, medium point tags, and low point tags.........so there should be choices there for everyone........and there are. But people will still complain because they got in too late to be able to get one of the 7 tags available every year for one specific unit. It's as if their tunnel vision doesn't allow them to see anything else except that one unit that they literally will never draw.

My buddy went in blind to a 1-point archery elk unit a few years ago. It's still a 1-2 point unit and even some NR's drew with 1 point this year. He shot a 320"+ bull the first day he was in there. Two years later he drew it again and shot a 300"+ bull the first day he was in there. And while he was breaking down that bull there were a few other big bulls screaming and chasing each other around within a couple hundred yards of him. You don't need 20+ points to have a good hunt.......albeit his were entirely too short to enjoy the hunt too much.

 

[5MilesBack]

Great points, I hate the idea of buying points and not applying.

Then don't do that. And guys that are always buying points and never using them aren't even in the equation, so they don't affect point creep at all. There are two CO residents with 35 elk points this year. There isn't a tag in the state that takes 35 points, but they just keep on buying points. And that's fine, they aren't part of the pool that are actually trying to get tags. But when they do actually apply for a tag, they'll get it.

 

[I hunt_dm3]

Then don't do that. And guys that are always buying points and never using them aren't even in the equation, so they don't affect point creep at all. There are two CO residents with 35 elk points this year. There isn't a tag in the state that takes 35 points, but they just keep on buying points. And that's fine, they aren't part of the pool that are actually trying to get tags. But when they do actually apply for a tag, they'll get it.

You think because they are buying points they don’t affect point creep? Those are the exact people affecting it. Buying points and not applying and not being in the system until they finally decide to apply, thus increasing the number of points it takes to get a tag. That’s what point creep is, I’m blown away you don’t see that.

 

[Marble]

You got in on the ground floor and have been applying for almost 20 years and you still are single digit odds for almost every tule elk hunt in the state as a resident. I think that literally proves his point that its hard to justify having a point system when so little are rewarded. You were lucky enough to get in on the ground floor and you still might not draw the tag you want.

Does it seem equitable to allocate 4x more tags for people that were lucky enough to have been able to apply the first year? Like I'm in my mid 30s and I legally wasn't allowed to apply that first year due to age, so because of that I'm subject to a system where I almost certainly will never reach the max points pool and get the benefit of 4x greater tag allocation? The sheep draw is the most stark example of this.. there are 27 tags allocated a year and 1,689 people in the max points pool.

It's just like anything else in life, you wait your turn. Just because you want it more doesn't mean anything. Everyone else does to. Wait your turn. It may never happen.

There are lots of hunts i would like to do and I may never get to. But i hunt every year. And sometimes I kill big animals, sometimes i don't.

And I dont know what my odds are for Tule Elk and I don't care. I'm not interested in that hunt.

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

 

[I hunt_dm3]

Colorado has really high point tags, medium point tags, and low point tags.........so there should be choices there for everyone........and there are. But people will still complain because they got in too late to be able to get one of the 7 tags available every year for one specific unit. It's as if their tunnel vision doesn't allow them to see anything else except that one unit that they literally will never draw.

My buddy went in blind to a 1-point archery elk unit a few years ago. It's still a 1-2 point unit and even some NR's drew with 1 point this year. He shot a 320"+ bull the first day he was in there. Two years later he drew it again and shot a 300"+ bull the first day he was in there. And while he was breaking down that bull there were a few other big bulls screaming and chasing each other around within a couple hundred yards of him. You don't need 20+ points to have a good hunt.......albeit his were entirely too short to enjoy the hunt too much.

So in your opinion, someone born after the year 2000 should not be able to hunt because they don’t have enough points to draw a tag? Got in to late only applies to people who had the opportunity and turned it down. What about the people who couldn’t or were not into hunting yet? Are they just SOL?

I am fully aware you don’t need 20 points to kill a animal or a large animal. I have killed lots a quality game on no point tags. I am saying the point systems are flawed and will limit tag opportunities for future generations. I am in the points game, points benefit me and allow me to plan hunts. This is not for me, it’s for the future and betterment of hunting IMO.

 

[5MilesBack]

You think because they are buying points they don’t affect point creep? Those are the exact people affecting it. Buying points and not applying and not being in the system until they finally decide to apply, thus increasing the number of points it takes to get a tag. That’s what point creep is, I’m blown away you don’t see that.

They could apply solely for points for 20 years without applying for a tag, and that has absolutely nothing to do with how many points it takes to draw every tag in the state. After they apply for those 20 years it might very well take 20 points to draw the tag they actually want, so they apply and get it. That's NOT what caused it to take 20 points for that tag.......they weren't even involved with that.

If you want to see why point creep is happening, take a look back as far as the stats show and look and see how many people were applying for a particular tag for a particular number of points. Look at every year. You'll see that the number of folks applying in each point block has gone up significantly. THAT's why there is the point creep we are seeing today......because of the overall demand that has increased over the years. Bow hunter numbers in CO have more than quadrupled in the last 20 years. You can't expect the needed points for each tag to stay the same as it was 20 years ago with that kind of demand increase.

Now, what all this extra demand has caused is people "dumping their points" on lesser units. And yes.......that has also contributed to the point creep. But the guy just collecting points for years hasn't even been in the equation to affect anything at that point. The points needed already increased before he even decided to use them.

 

[I hunt_dm3]

They could apply solely for points for 20 years without applying for a tag, and that has absolutely nothing to do with how many points it takes to draw every tag in the state. After they apply for those 20 years it might very well take 20 points to draw the tag they actually want, so they apply and get it. That's NOT what caused it to take 20 points for that tag.......they weren't even involved with that.

If you want to see why point creep is happening, take a look back as far as the stats show and look and see how many people were applying for a particular tag for a particular number of points. Look at every year. You'll see that the number of folks applying in each point block has gone up significantly. THAT's why there is the point creep we are seeing today......because of the overall demand that has increased over the years. Bow hunter numbers in CO have more than quadrupled in the last 20 years. You can't expect the needed points for each tag to stay the same as it was 20 years ago with that kind of demand increase.

Now, what all this extra demand has caused is people "dumping their points" on lesser units. And yes.......that has also contributed to the point creep. But the guy just collecting points for years hasn't even been in the equation to affect anything at that point. The points needed already increased before he even decided to use them.

That may be true for one person, them choosing to collect points and wait to apply may not have a large affect. But when you have hundreds of people doing that coupled with people actually applying and not receiving a tag, that drives the creep even higher and faster. There are already to many people applying for limited tags, add in the people with max points not applying every year, that causes the creep to accelerate even faster. Please take the time to listen to the podcast I mentioned earlier, it has a lot of useful information on this subject by people with far more experience and knowledge than you and I.

 

[5MilesBack]

So in your opinion, someone born after the year 2000 should not be able to hunt because they don’t have enough points to draw a tag?

That's not even a valid argument. There are plenty of opportunities for people to hunt every year in many states regardless when they were born or whether they want to collect and use points. My middle daughter was born in 2000 and wasn't even eligible to collect points or hunt until 2012 and already has had a great successful bull elk hunt, and multiple other hunts. My youngest daughter is only 14 and drew a ML elk tag this year, and has other opportunities as well if she wants them. And that's just in one state. Heck, I could go to Idaho every year and hunt OTC if I could fit it in with my hunts just in CO every year. Plenty of opportunity.

But as I stated earlier, the problem arises for some people when they fixate on one particular unit or tag that is most definitely out of reach for them. Heck, those tags are out of reach for 99.9999% of the population including myself. As Wapitibob has stated a few times already.......if they can't figure out the math or the writing on the wall, then we're of no help to them either.

 

[5MilesBack]

add in the people with max points not applying every year, that causes the creep to accelerate even faster.

Again........you could have a million people collecting "points only" for their entire lifetime and that doesn't affect how many points it takes for each tag AT ALL. They aren't in the PP creep equation because they aren't applying for an actual tag. It's not until they actually apply for an actual tag that they are then in the equation.

I speak from a CO perspective, as that's all I've ever dealt with in regards to point systems. I know this system inside and out, as I've been playing this game for 40 years. I've never used more than 5 points on an elk tag in that time, but I have 18 deer points. I collect the points every year and that has no bearing whatsoever on point creep for deer. That point creep has happened all without me or my influence. But I'm sure I have influenced the elk point creep to some degree as I apply for an elk tag every year.

 

[I hunt_dm3]

Again........you could have a million people collecting "points only" for their entire lifetime and that doesn't affect how many points it takes for each tag AT ALL. They aren't in the PP creep equation because they aren't applying for an actual tag. It's not until they actually apply for an actual tag that they are then in the equation.

I speak from a CO perspective, as that's all I've ever dealt with in regards to point systems. I know this system inside and out, as I've been playing this game for 40 years. I've never used more than 5 points on an elk tag in that time, but I have 18 deer points. I collect the points every year and that has no bearing whatsoever on point creep for deer. That point creep has happened all without me or my influence. But I'm sure I have influenced the elk point creep to some degree as I apply for an elk tag every year.

You make it seem as tho the people collecting points don’t ever apply. It’s when they apply that the creep happens, and there are thousands of people playing the points game, myself included. Please take the time to listen to the podcast, it sheds a lot of light on this issue and will hopefully he’ll you understand what I am saying.

 

[mproberts]

It's just like anything else in life, you wait your turn. Just because you want it more doesn't mean anything. Everyone else does to. Wait your turn. It may never happen.

There are lots of hunts i would like to do and I may never get to. But i hunt every year. And sometimes I kill big animals, sometimes i don't.

You kind of avoided the question.... Does the it seem equitable to you to allocate 4x the amount of tags to people that entered the draw the first year? Keeping in mind that most will likely die without ever drawing a sheep tag in the max points pool? But yet you get to try every year for decades and decades with 4x more tags allocated to your pool?