Monos vs. Lead. Which do you choose and why?

[Nosferatu]

I’ve been investigating these for a couple different rifles I own. The problem I see is having a twist rate to stabilize them. Most all of my rifles have standard twist rates and this would make me choose a rather light for caliber bullet to properly stabilize it.


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Go light. You want your impact velocity to be ~1800fps.

 

[NMTGrad]

I shoot whatever round is most accurate and most suited for the game I’m hunting. I’ve used cup and core, premium bonded, and monos. All have performed well, but all of them were placed in exactly the right spot. All that said, the most spectacular performing round for me has been the Hornady 6.5 PRC 143 gr ELD-X. That bullet seems to pole axe animals, and I used about every caliber and bullet type can think of from .243 to .308.

 

[Flyjunky]

Go light. You want your impact velocity to be ~1800fps.

Look up tests/pictures of Barnes ttsx and look at what Barnes defines as expansion at 1800fps. It’s little more than tip deformation, so I’d say keep the impact closer to 2200.

 

[Nosferatu]

Look up tests/pictures of Barnes ttsx and look at what Barnes defines as expansion at 1800fps. It’s little more than tip deformation, so I’d say keep the impact closer to 2200.

We're talking hammers, here, not Barnes. Hammer advises 1800fps.

Barnes wants 2000, IIRC.

 

[Flyjunky]

We're talking hammers, here, not Barnes. Hammer advises 1800fps.

Barnes wants 2000, IIRC.

Regardless, I’d add 200fps to whatever a manufacturer says just for insurance.

 

[f16jack]

7mm Rem mag for elk.
I used to use 175 gr. Nosler Partitions. 9 elk: average 3 bullets and 140 yards.
I've switched to Berger 180 gr. VLD hunters. 7 elk: average 1 bullet and 0 yards.
Shot ranges averaged ~250 yards.

Some comments from above:
"you need 1800 fps for expansion." True - with a muzzle velocity of 1850, the berger at 6000' elevation has 1845 fps at 1000 yards. 2200 fps at 600 yards, 2000 fps at 800 yards.

"I say aim for the shoulder." If this is your style then don't use Bergers. They will not penetrate through. Each of the 16 elk above were shot in the heart/lung region. Why waste meat?

"Larger that elk I'd use a more solid bullet." True again. My 44 Mag on my hip for grizzlies was not sporting Bergers. It had handloads with Hunters Supply 44 Cal 300gr FP Hard Cast Bullets, Lead Flat Nose.
I was looking to break bone and penetrate everything, not splatter at the first sign of real resistance.

"Bergers require a Twist rate that most rifles don't have." Yes and no. Berger has a stability calculator on its website. For my hunting conditions (elevation, temperature, air density) the 180 Berger is stable for almost all conditions out of my standard Remington 700 (9.25 rate of twist) and my Kimber Mountain Ascent (9.5 rate of twist). The Berger 195 VLD is not stable for some of my conditions, so I choose not to load it (sticking with the 180 VLD's).

 

[RussDXT]

I have had phenomenal results with the patriot valley arms Cayuga 122’s.

Awesome really.

 

[HONEYBADGER]

A buddy of mine has a place in the Sierras out in Cali. The condors literally eat the shingles off his roof. Lead is the least of the problems those birds have.

Windmills are slaughtering raptors and now whales but they are OK because greenies love them. Just like their precious weed farms polluting waterways and poisoning animals with pesticides, those are OK too because the left loves their weed.

It's not about birds, it's about making hunting as inconvenient as possible. What is happening in Colorado is absolute proof of that. The fruity big cats lady that travels all over the country testifying before committees to ban hunting of predators was asked recently what is an allowable number of predator harvests? What would your group be ok with? The answer was none, zero.

It's the same groups pushing the lead ban stuff, same types of studies, same methods of operation. Their goal is to eliminate hunting period by any means necessary.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Making a laundry list of all the things that are harmful to animals or people helps spread awareness on how to deflect from the argument of lead being a poison.

Lead was banned from gasoline, lead was banned from paint. It's not about making hunting is inconvenient if possible, it's acknowledging it is a poison. Is there any disagreement on that?

Sportsman saying we are all for the animals in the wilderness yet want to shoot a poison down range. This is counterproductive to keeping us in the game long term if they are truly trying to make it as inconvenient possible.

Get off the stubborn horse, as I hope it's not ignorance. Copper is going to be the way of the world at some point. Make the change now and kill your game.

 

[JGRaider]

I'll stick with lead core as long as I can personally. I've got a lot more to worry about in life than lead poisoning.

 

[Caseknife]

Anybody that thinks lead is not detrimental to health, do a little research on Idaho's Silver Valley history.

 

[2-Stix]

I run Barnes because of CA. They all pencil through. Last 6 bucks ran 20-50 yards. I dont like them. Moving out of state next year and will be using a eldx.

 

[Flyjunky]

You think community exposure from a fire at a smelting plant is equivalent to hunters who MIGHT ingest some lead?

Can you point me to all the hunters who have died from ingesting lead from bullets? We’ve been using lead bullets for a long time so I’m guessing there is tons of evidence.

Once again, of all the things that we come into contact with on a DAILY basis that are bad for our health….lead from game meat doesn’t even register for me.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Using mortality as your only indicator as to whether or not, something should be avoided is rather myopic. If you want to keep using lead, by all means, do so. It’s not good for you in any way.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Definitely apparent that it doesn't register for many. Stubbornness or ignorance?

 

[Flyjunky]

Using mortality as your only indicator as to whether or not, something should be avoided is rather myopic. If you want to keep using lead, by all means, do so. It’s not good for you in any way.

It’s not only mortality I get it….good lord, the lead haters are as bad as the climate is going to kill us crowd.

Point to all the studies of hunters having more problems than non-hunters. I’m sure you have that info. I’m very interested to read all these studies.

 

[Jason Snyder]

It’s not only mortality I get it….good lord, the lead haters are as bad as the climate is going to kill us crowd.

Point to all the studies of hunters having more problems than non-hunters. I’m sure you have that info. I’m very interested to read all these studies.

There is data showing increased lead levels in hunters in some studies. Increased lead levels will not do anything good for you. I don’t want dementia or the other physiological issues associated with lead ingestion.

You are happy with lead. I have no interest in digging up data that you will likely disregard anyway. You can find it with minimal effort. It’s a personal choice for me. Use your lead and I will use my copper.

 

[Felix40]

There’s just so many things that have been shown to be health hazards but people still use them. Phthalates and aluminum in deodorant, bpas in plastic food and water packaging, alcohol, all the prescription drugs people take, pesticides and herbicides being sprayed on all our food, breathing the exhaust from cars boats and other equipment. Somehow all that stuff hasn’t been banned but lead ammo is “unsafe” and should be banned?

Lead ammo hasn’t actually been linked to any negative health effects. Even eating fish is more of a health concern. For me the risk is worth the reward of having highly effective and reliable ammo to hunt with.

 

[Formidilosus]

There is data showing increased lead levels in hunters in some studies.

No- every study that I am aware that has tried to state that has serious flaws, or was outright funded, sponsored, or influenced by ani hunters, or anti-lead people and orgs.

Increased lead levels will not do anything good for you. I don’t want dementia or the other physiological issues associated with lead ingestion.

Neither does any one else.

I have no interest in digging up data

Legit, broad based data that shows that hunters have higher lead levels than non hunters, when other lifestyle factors are accounted for- doesn’t exist.

 

[jhm2023]

Well, I made it through 8 pages of this before jumping to the end.

I started shooting monos when I moved to Alaska over a decade ago with the sole purpose of having the ability to punch deep into large critters at less than ideal angles, especially bears of the brown variety. Prior to that I've only ever hunted with cup and core bullets. I've developed loads and have taken plenty of game with 7 different brands and various models of all copper projos and have never been disappointed with the on game performance when attention is paid to stability and function velocity. Hammers, Lehigh controlled chaos and CEB bullets are my favorite as they seem like the best of both worlds with penetration and fragmentation and do generally kill faster than bullets with 95%+ retention such as Barnes and Hornady gmx/cx. Of those, I mainly stick with the Hammers for the ease of load development and being able to push them a a little faster.

On a side note, as a sheep hunter reading people talk about lead fragments in carcasses killing golden eagles. It has me mildly entertaining the idea of hiking into sheep country in the off season with pockets full of fragmenting lead ammo and whack every ground squirrel I see. Those eagles are hell on the lambs.