Monos vs. Lead. Which do you choose and why?

[Blackdog317]

I can see where moving down calibers would be beneficial when trying to get max velocity out of a similar sized case, and also would help with accuracy (recoil). My thought is to go with the med bore, .358 or a .375, and run a lighter bullet to get the velocity for mono expansion. This would give the larger wound channel to increase bleeding for tracking and to hopefully disrupt more internally along with increasing momentum for pass throughs. Along with property lines that can be questionable on getting access across, I do not feel like tracking deer or a bear across marshes.

Hopefully I am able to learn more about this by following others on here. I don't have the time or resources to experiment much for the next few years. I'll just work with the 30-06 that I have now.

Here is some info from a tech at Barnes that might be helpful if you are considering their bullets in your 30-06.

"Both the 300 Win Mag and 300 WSM were designed to shoot in a standard length or short length action; respectively. With the limits SAAMI places on those two’s COAL the 165 gr was designed to fit with those parameters. In addition to the COAL we felt the velocities of that bullet, being higher from both magnums would perform better if it had a higher, lower impact velocity of 1800 fps. The 168, TSX and TTSX, was designed more for the 308 Win and 30-06 velocities and thus has a 1500 fps minimum impact velocity. With that said, many many, to include myself, will shoot the 168 gr in either of the magnums since we reloaders are not constrained by SAAMI “and” we want the lower impact velocity for more reliable expansion at farther hunting distances; ie., long range hunting. The 175 LRX is the lightest of our 308 caliber LRX choices and gives a higher BC and lower impact velocity of 1600 fps for those hunters who want a heavier bullet and higher BC. “ALL” excellent bullets which can sometimes cross back and forth within the parameters given."

 

[Brendan]

I'm not going to get into the back and forth name calling and arguing, and I haven't read the whole thread, but here's my position.

I would love to stop using lead across the board. We'd be better off not ingesting any of it from a health perspective, even when I'm not worried at all about the amount I ingest, and we'd be better off not leaving it around in gut piles for raptors to ingest.

But, it just doesn't work as well in some scenarios. In my 300 WM with a 9.5 Twist barrel - give me a copper bullet that works as well as the 215 Berger? In my 6.5 PRC, give me a copper bullet that works as well as a Berger 156 EOL? I'd have to switch to cutting edge, and drop the weight, and run them faster which isn't as ideal and then I'm starting to run stuff hotter and faster which results in increased wear on the barrel. Can't get similar weights because of the properties of copper v. lead, and I don't want to run super long bullets I have to single feed and get a faster twist barrel for.

I have some Hammers and Cutting Edge Bullets that I'm going to use here and there, load stuff lighter and faster like the discussions in the .223 threads etc. but as of yet there's a performance gap in some scenarios that I'm not going to give up.

 

[HuntNaked]

I live in California and have switched over to copper in most of my rifles (aside from my 300 WM because I use that primarily out of state). So far, I have not noticed any issues with effectiveness. In fact, I have noticed that copper has been very effective for me and I like the results. But fortunately, I have yet to experience any questionable hits on an animal in the last several years. Cheers.

 

[MT Hunter1983]

I’ve been hunting with lead (Berger). Wild game is the only protein I eat, usually go through at least an elk or two, maybe a deer every season. I’m careful with avoiding the wound channel and bloodshot meat, but I somehow ended up with a lead fragment in my meat I was eating this year. It got me all paranoid about it, so I had my doctor order a blood lead level. It came back undetectably low. So to me, I think all the talk about lead toxicity is exaggerated and blown out of proportion. With that said, I may work up some hammers just for fun.

 

[JGRaider]

I’ve been hunting with lead (Berger). Wild game is the only protein I eat, usually go through at least an elk or two, maybe a deer every season. I’m careful with avoiding the wound channel and bloodshot meat, but I somehow ended up with a lead fragment in my meat I was eating this year. It got me all paranoid about it, so I had my doctor order a blood lead level. It came back undetectably low. So to me, I think all the talk about lead toxicity is exaggerated and blown out of proportion. With that said, I may work up some hammers just for fun.

No doubt. I'm 62, been hunting for 51 years. I've never known nor heard of the first human being dying from ingesting lead from eating wild game.

 

[35WhelenAI]

What is your setup for your .358 Whelen, and velocities? What ranges are you taking animals at with those 200s and getting expansion? I want to use monos for saving meat and all the other reason we have beat to death on this thread. I would like to use a med caliber to try and put whitetail down a bit harder since I deal with property lines in the midwest.

What do they consider closer ranges?

Set up is an M98 action, Timney trigger, 25" Shilen bbl, 3 position M70 style safety from David Gentry, light weight bottom metal/hinged floor plate, High Tech Specialties stock, Redfield 1 pc base. Wore a VX-II 3-9X up until last year when a VX3HD CDS ZL 3.5-10 was swapped on. Either scope could be on the gun and I would not complain either way.

Sighting in for MPBR has been the ticket for most of my 21 seasons with that gun. 3" high at 100 yds (260 yd zero) is 3" low at 300 yds (2297 fps), 7" low at 340 (2218 fps) 16" low at 400 yds (2103 fps). 340 yds is mentioned as that was the longest shot (elk) with a Barnes 200 X (original, pre-TSX/TTSX). It went down where it stood as best I could see and watched it slide downhill on the snowy slope. MV on that load with the original 200 X was 2875fps.

Currently, the 200 TTSX over IMR4064 is running at 2940 fps mv with a bit more room to go as I dropped back 1 grain on the hunting loads from top loads. That charge is 1 gr more than Barnes shows for the 200 TTSX in the std Whelen using a 24" bbl. Talking with Ty at Barnes he feels good it's a safe load with my 1" longer bbl and AI chambering. As an aside, the above load at 300 yds has a best group of 2.25", so I have confidence in it front that standpoint as well. Typically 1" at 100 yds, a bit better if I am having a good day.

I have worked with Power Pro Varmint recently and using the newer Speer data (Sierra has some newer data as well with newer powders) as a guide, am getting 3030 fps with the 200 TTSX. That is really moving. Measuring case head expansion (CHE) with an outside micrometer, starting with once fired brass (fire forming with lighter loads) and checking after the next firing as well, there is minimal CHE and it is well under what would be considered normal and not over pressure. I did that work because there wasn't any data for Power Pro Varmint, wanted to use due diligence and work it up with the most information possible to not go over pressure. Primer pockets are as tight as new brass.

With that said, made a move from Colorado to North Carolina this fall and sighted the VX3HD at 100 yds, clicked up for the 200-220 yd ranges on the 3 whitetail deer I took. Haven't had the custom dial made yet.

Textbook Barnes wound channel that tattered/chunked the vitals on each one. One went straight down (doe), another went 20 yds side hill in a stagger (young buck), the 3rd was a nice buck that had just come off a doe. He made a mad dash hunched over for 30 or 40 yds on the side hill, then piled up and rolled/slid 10 yds downhill on a lung shot. I have great respect for the tenacity of whitetail deer and their reactions to good hits relative to mule deer and elk with the 200 gr .358 TTSX. All had exit wounds which is expected on mule/whitetail deer from any angle. I've never caught a 200 TTSX inside an elk either, although I recovered two original X's from quartering shots on elk. There was blood that could've been followed on the deer if needed. They don't leave a massive exit hole in the hide, but plenty for blood to get out.

For me, 400 yds and under would be considered normal hunting if I was to call out a number.

However, it's the truth in my experience that a 110 TTSX @3375 fps head on into an elk at 30 yds from a .270 Win puts the animal into instant "off" and dropped in its tracks. A 130 TTSX from an '06 at 3300 fps makes for good elk medicine as well. Point being, velocity with monos is your friend. For deer, I used the Whelen AI because it was ready to go after my move to NC and only had to verify zero. 3000 fps, for example, isn't pushing the velocity envelope for monos, but it's damn fast for a Whelen (or Whelen AI), and gives that gun legit 400 yd range. Won't ever need it here in NC, but it was nice to have in Colorado.

Will check out the different Hammers, thanks for the short synopsis.

Edit: pulled the trigger on a box of 200 gr .358 Power Hammers.

 

[PredatorSlayer]

Steve from Hammer told me bc doesn't matter and brian litz doesn't know how to measure it. We're they incorrect?

Yeah…he is the only bullet manufacturer that makes excuses for his bullets poor bcs and significantly exaggerates them on his website. Thats what happens when you market them on a long range hunting forum. Steve told me he knows more about BCs than litz does. Made me laugh out loud…

 

[z987k]

No doubt. I'm 62, been hunting for 51 years. I've never known nor heard of the first human being dying from ingesting lead from eating wild game.

I think I've said this 4 times in this thread now.

No one and not one single study has ever said, or even some close to saying any hunter or anyone who eats any amount of wild game shot with lead bullets has died of or had acute lead poisoning. Neither of those things are a reason to stop shooting lead bullets and even the most hard core copper fan will tell you that.
Symptoms of long term low level exposure on the other hand are what this is about. That and raptors.

 

[Saintsfan1977]

Monos. They work, they're accurate, and no lead.

 

[TN2shot07]

As others have said above, for me it depends on the rifle. I’d never used monos until I was having trouble finding ammo to shoot well in a 270. I picked up some Barnes ttsx and they worked great in that gun. I also have one rifle that shoots corelokts better than anything else, so that’s what I use out of it. Shoot what’s most accurate out of the gun, if you live somewhere that requires non toxic at least we have great options!

 

[fngTony]

One last shot, let’s please stay on topic while being cool with each other.

 

[Shraggs]

Very savvy (or cunning) question, which, of course, the answer to is unknown.

The study to answer that would be exceptionally complicated, take a long time and be very expensive (it would take at lease a decade and cost multiple millions in my estimation). To answer this question not only requires understanding of lead landscape, but all other factors that affect population, many of which are equally not completely understood at the population level - it just isn't going to happen until lead ammunition receives more scrutiny (is that what you want?). A population level study like that is akin the the to the many heart disease studies that try to link some factor and seem to end up contradicting other similar sturdies or end up with equivocal results. For lead and raptors, not only would be be exceedingly expensive, but would also have to be done many times (areas, species, etc...) to result in a good understanding.

So how were they able to so quickly do studies that lay Blane for high raptor death rates in the first place on lead bullets?

Come on, they can and could have repeated their methods to answer this mist fundamental question on this aspect.

 

[Tod osier]

So how were they able to so quickly do studies that lay Blane for high raptor death rates in the first place on lead bullets?

Come on, they can and could have repeated their methods to answer this mist fundamental question on this aspect.

Studies to determine that lead is toxic to individual birds are are fairly easy to conduct - feed lead to birds and monitor them. There are plenty of studies documenting that birds fed lead get sick and die - metallic lead is toxic to birds. You can also observe that there are dead or sick raptors around and that they have high lead blood or lead liver levels and lead bullet particles in their digestive system. There are studies that have done this as well - again the evidence is that metallic lead is toxic to birds. Given these two lines of evidence at the level of INDIVIDUAL birds It is reasonable to assume or at least expect lead is bad for bird populations if lead is widespread on the landscape. The question that I was responding to was asking if these clear and strong toxic effects on individuals have impacts on the larger POPULATION as a whole (or on sub-populations) - to answer that question is harder, more messy, more expensive, and takes longer.

We always start looking at the impact on individuals and then if something is found the experiments are often scaled up. You don't do the hard and expensive experiments first, you work from what is known and scale up.

 

[SBR Sarge]

To the original question, I use solid copper for my hunting.

-avoids the chance of lead contamination

-eliminates the little fragments of lead in meat surrounding the bullet path.

Regardless of whether or not lead can / could harm me, I hate trying to sort out all those small un-palatable pieces of lead.

 

[rootacres]

Thought this might interest you. I asked a similar question a while back.

Ive used both. Of the last 6 elk our group has harvested, 3 were taken with TTSX, 3 were taken with Bergers. Shot distances from 160-325. All but 1 were down in less than 5 steps. Upon processing the animals both bullet constructions were devastating, but in different ways. When the TTSXs didn't hit something hard they seemed to penciled through, some are concerned about that. We recovered two of the TTSX, those bullets mushroomed how you'd expect. When the Bergers hit something hard they penetrate a few inches and breaks up, some are concerned about that too. We recovered one bullet, it had about 50% weight retention.

I don't know what the answer is. I say aim for the shoulder and let'r eat. I plan to shoot Bergers for my next hunt. If I was chasing something larger than elk I'd be switching to a mono.

Copper vs Bonded vs Cup and Core

Not sure why the Trophy Bonded Bearclaw wasnt mentioned..its about as close to the ideal bullet performance at any range on any elk sized game you are going to get. A lot of this conversation is unwarranted though as even quality cup and core like the Hornady Interlock will perform quite well...

rokslide.com

 

[35WhelenAI]

Where did I say this is what Rokslide Supports? This is my opinion. Last I checked, this was a thread full of opinions with a few facts sprinkled in.

I will be honest: Raptors or lead poisoning don't even enter my mind when selecting a hunting bullet. I want the best tool for the job. From what I have read, Very few birds die from lead, but many die from windmills. If this is untrue, point me to the article I will read it. I emailed the North American Non-Lead partnership yesterday to clarify something they said in an article.

Don't know where you have been the last two years, but everything is politically motivated. So when I say make sure it's the original study, it means to make sure it's not a cherry-picked version of the study posted up on a fake news site. You should also find out who paid for the study.

In my 30+ years of hunting, it didn't take long to see mono's were inferior to lead.

Checking back, it's been two weeks.

 

[Ryan Avery]

Checking back, it's been two weeks.

Leland’s been hunting haven’t talked to him yet.

 

[Bubbadoyle]

I took a sip of the Hammer kool-aid a couple years ago. Since developing a couple loads for my .30-06 and .30-30, the results haven't given me a reason to go with anything else.

I’ve been investigating these for a couple different rifles I own. The problem I see is having a twist rate to stabilize them. Most all of my rifles have standard twist rates and this would make me choose a rather light for caliber bullet to properly stabilize it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Flyjunky]

I’ve been investigating these for a couple different rifles I own. The problem I see is having a twist rate to stabilize them. Most all of my rifles have standard twist rates and this would make me choose a rather light for caliber bullet to properly stabilize it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Most who shoot mono use light for caliber bullets.

 

[JFK]

I’ve been investigating these for a couple different rifles I own. The problem I see is having a twist rate to stabilize them. Most all of my rifles have standard twist rates and this would make me choose a rather light for caliber bullet to properly stabilize it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Most problems with monos arise when people shoot heavy for caliber bullets. Light for caliber, leaving the muzzle at 3000+ fps is the safer way to go.