Mechanical vs Fixed - different perspective

[Muley15]

I have always been a fixed blade broadhead hunter and have been set in my ways about it. Never had much of issue getting them to fly out 80-90 yards. I watched a podcast last night with Aaron Snyder and Tim Gillingham and they talk about why they prefer shooting mechanicals for long range hunting and its got me really thinking about it. When I shoot my fixed blades I consider the conditions pretty optimal in my backyard compared to real hunting situations where you might be shooting on your knees in a crosswind. There points about it in the video are valid and may consider switching for the season. If you got some time watch the video and what they talk about before you comment.

Episode 67: Mechanical Versus Fixed Blade Broadheads & More w/ Tim Gillingham & Aron Snyder - YouTube

 

[5MilesBack]

I was a hard core fixed head guy too, until 2011 and I shot in the wind in Central MT. At 80 yards my Shuttle T's were hitting 18" left of target with a strong wind out of the right. We were standing behind my buddy's garage so we weren't affected by the wind and shooting to the 80 yard target. He gave me a Grim Reaper head to try on my arrow and I shot it. And I shot it again and again. It was consistently only about 2" left of the bullseye in that wind. I've had at least one mechanical head in my quiver ever since, and shot four bulls now with them.

 

[Beendare]

To me its all about perspective. Target guys don't like heavy arrows and a lot of them seem to like mech heads. Tim is an amazing target shooter...no doubt. From his perspective; 80 yd shot is OK...

I have a buddy that guided hogs/deer for years...he took many sponsored pros too. Out of something like 35 shots 80 yds+....some as far as 100 yds plus...they killed one hog/deer...ONE. There were many cases where it didn't matter that the shooter could group arrows in a target 120yds from camp...there are other factors in hunting.

Now my guess is that Aron and Tim are better than the avg hunter at determining body language and whether the animal will move.

The other thing I've seen with pro shooter buddies is they don't like heavy arrows. They want all of the trajectory they can get. Nothing wrong with that...just a different perspective. Those are about the last 2 guys on the planet I would criticize...so don't take it as such.

I think they just failed to mention [or maybe they did?] that long distance magnifies the chance of failure.

 

[elkguide]

At 50 yards, one and a half slow steps go from a perfect lung shot to a gut shot.
I guess that you would need a big mechanical for that shot to be deadly.

Long shots with a rifle have so many variables but with a bow there are so many more.

A fixed head always opens.

 

[Muley15]

I guess what got me thinking being a whitetail and mule deer hunter only is when they talked about blood trails created by mechanicals and how much more devastating a mechanical is on a bad shot. If all you got to do is crack a rib, your cutting diameter is almost doubled with a mechanical. If you mule deer hunt, you are more than likely going to shoot in the wind and the mechanical does in fact fly better in the wind. The afflictor and grave digger heads have caught my attention and I may pick some up to do some testing with. From what I have found in regards to penetration on the web is that they are on par with fixed blades for penetration.

 

[kodiakfly]

Ok, so first of all, no matter how anyone reads this, I'm not knocking anyone or anything...just my take on broadheads. Like was said, these guys are better and more experienced than I am, so they could shoot field points at live game at 150 yards if they want to and I wouldn't try to refute that. They know their stuff. And no, I didn't have time to watch the podcast tonight, I have it in my watchlist to watch later and maybe that'll shed some light on it for me, because...

I understand that mechanicals typically fly better at the longer ranges and in the wind. But my point, and I've always said this, if you trust a mechanical to kill an animal in questionable conditions at 80 yards, why wouldn't you trust it to kill in prime conditions at 20 yards? Now, I'm not saying mechanicals are just the better option. But, if you trust it at 80, you should trust it at 20. And if you're worried about a marginal hit at 80...marginal hits happen at 20 as well. The only time I get it is if you're out deer hunting and carry a lighter mechanical for deer, but you're in bear country with a bear tag and you want a Muzzy or a Zwickey for bears so you carry one or two. I get that. I'd prefer a Muzzy into a bear over most mechanicals at any distance.

 

[mrgreen]

As would be expected from RS, some great points made already. To the OP, I watched the GB Gillingham podcast a few times since it aired. Have you watched ep. 71? Brian and Aron work hard to clear up any confusion from the Gillingham episode.

So, I've had about a year to mess around with ideas from both podcasts. What I've found is; mechanicals offer definite advantages over fixed. BUT, unless your bow is strong enough to push a fairly heavy arrow fast enough you are likely to have incidents of insufficient broadhead expansion and arrow penetration.

Plus, when you try chasing the long range concept, you'll need an arrow with a flat trajectory or you'll run out of room for adjustment on your scope/sight housing. If your shooting a bow weight common for deer you may have to use an arrow so light it increases noise at the shot and creates penetration issues. I believe Gillingham used a phrase similar to " ...all you'd hit is dirt...".

As you think about Gillingham's comments remember he's shooting an 80lb bow with a 33.5 DL. So, even more then usual "your milage may vary".

 

[Brendan]

Another thing to remember - there are big differences in mechanicals. You can use a 1.5" 2 blade mechanical with a stainless ferrule - or you can use up to 2" 3 blades. Another couple names to throw in the hat who are mechanical fans - Randy Ulmer, John Dudley.

All of these guys are shooting heavier arrows, more KE, perfectly tuned bows.

Here's one from Dudley. Rage Hypodermic +P - Stainless Steel Ferrule, 1.5" Stainless Blades, 509gr arrow

Graphic Video of Rage Hypodermic +P Destruction of Elk Bone - YouTube

 

[Muley15]

As would be expected from RS, some great points made already. To the OP, I watched the GB Gillingham podcast a few times since it aired. Have you watched ep. 71? Brian and Aron work hard to clear up any confusion from the Gillingham episode.

So, I've had about a year to mess around with ideas from both podcasts. What I've found is; mechanicals offer definite advantages over fixed. BUT, unless your bow is strong enough to push a fairly heavy arrow fast enough you are likely to have incidents of insufficient broadhead expansion and arrow penetration.

Plus, when you try chasing the long range concept, you'll need an arrow with a flat trajectory or you'll run out of room for adjustment on your scope/sight housing. If your shooting a bow weight common for deer you may have to use an arrow so light it increases noise at the shot and creates penetration issues. I believe Gillingham used a phrase similar to " ...all you'd hit is dirt...".

As you think about Gillingham's comments remember he's shooting an 80lb bow with a 33.5 DL. So, even more then usual "your milage may vary".

I have not watched the follow up podcast yet. I do agree that if you are pulling less than 60lbs, a cut on contact head is probably a better option. In the podcast, Tim basically agrees with that. I understand the argument about fixed blades not failing but there is a definite unknown for shooting them in the wind which in my opinion is a bigger disadvantage than worrying about a mechanical not opening. Your odds of a bad shot at 60-70 yards compared to the odds of the head not opening are greatly in favor of the broadhead. I do believe there are a few select mechanicals that are superior over the rest of the mechanicals and I will be testing them. I myself am shooting a 430g arrow at 292 fps and like the idea that a marginally bad shot with a mechanical would increase my chance at recovery. That marginally bad shot with a fixed blade broadhead in the wind may be a miss or a no find.

To the question about why some people wouldn't trust a mechanical at closer ranges as they would at longer ranges would be weather element and situational related in my opinion. For example, in my 6 arrow quiver I have 5 arrows that are 430g and I have 1 arrow thats 550 grains with a tough fixed blade. That arrow is for when I am on top of a bedded deer at 15yds or less. When mule deer are bedded everything about there body is folded and scrunched together and want something thats bone crushing. It is almost a guarantee that you are going to hit bone on that shot. I myself don't have an issue not trusting a mechanical but have primarily shot fixed blades because I never had an issue getting them to fly. Now that I'm more experienced with mule deer and the elements I am dealing with when hunting them I am looking to minimize anything possible for shooting in the wind.

 

[5MilesBack]

if you trust a mechanical to kill an animal in questionable conditions at 80 yards, why wouldn't you trust it to kill in prime conditions at 20 yards?

You would......at least I do. This years bull was 30 yards with a 3 blade 1.5" cut GR Fatal Steel......down in 37 yards. I didn't watch the entire podcast yet, but just because they fly so well in the wind at distance doesn't mean that there aren't those same benefits at closer ranges as well. But as said above.....shoot what's best for you and your equipment. I have a 32 1/2" draw shooting a 500+gr arrow. The 300+ bull I shot in 2012 was at 59 yards with a 125gr Spitfire (3-blade 1.5" cut). It was hard quartering away and the arrow buried and stuck in the offside shoulder....down in 80 yards. Massive blood trail. Not everyone can get that kind of penetration, even with a fixed head. I know Aron was also shooting 80lbs before he picked up the recurve.

 

[mrgreen]

.....I myself am shooting a 430g arrow at 292 fps........

Sounds like that should do it. Mind if I ask what your shooting? I'm still working on my setup for this season.

 

[Muley15]

Sounds like that should do it. Mind if I ask what your shooting? I'm still working on my setup for this season.

Hoyt carbon defiant 31, 72lbs, 28.5DL. Arrows are Gold Tip Velocity Pro 300's with 50g inserts.

 

[kodiakfly]

You would......at least I do. This years bull was 30 yards with a 3 blade 1.5" cut GR Fatal Steel......down in 37 yards. I didn't watch the entire podcast yet, but just because they fly so well in the wind at distance doesn't mean that there aren't those same benefits at closer ranges as well. But as said above.....shoot what's best for you and your equipment. I have a 32 1/2" draw shooting a 500+gr arrow. The 300+ bull I shot in 2012 was at 59 yards with a 125gr Spitfire (3-blade 1.5" cut). It was hard quartering away and the arrow buried and stuck in the offside shoulder....down in 80 yards. Massive blood trail. Not everyone can get that kind of penetration, even with a fixed head. I know Aron was also shooting 80lbs before he picked up the recurve.

Oh, I agree. I shoot mechanical heads.

 

[Jacob Chapman]

I had listened to the podcast previously, I enjoyed it. They both make a lot of good points for sure

 

[kicker338]

On this subject of mechanicals has anyone here, herd of or used the mechanical called Innerloc Shape Shifter ??

 

[sneaky]

I have always been a fixed blade broadhead hunter and have been set in my ways about it. Never had much of issue getting them to fly out 80-90 yards. I watched a podcast last night with Aaron Snyder and Tim Gillingham and they talk about why they prefer shooting mechanicals for long range hunting and its got me really thinking about it. When I shoot my fixed blades I consider the conditions pretty optimal in my backyard compared to real hunting situations where you might be shooting on your knees in a crosswind. There points about it in the video are valid and may consider switching for the season. If you got some time watch the video and what they talk about before you comment.

Episode 67: Mechanical Versus Fixed Blade Broadheads & More w/ Tim Gillingham & Aron Snyder - YouTube

Already seen it. Reinforces my opinion that Tim is one of the biggest jerks in archery. One of the new micro diameter shafts and a Wac'Em triton will fly with any mechanical on the market. When Tim needs to be humbled you just need to post up the video of him dry firing the Bowtech at the ATA. He'll eventually figure out how a back tension release works lol.

 

[5MilesBack]

One of the new micro diameter shafts and a Wac'Em triton will fly with any mechanical on the market.

I'm going to need to see the video on that one, or something else to back that up. I still shoot Wac'ems as well as a few other fixed heads. But I'll take the mechanical in a strong crosswind over the Wac'em every day of the week........even with skinny shafts.

 

[sneaky]

That's from personal testing, in the wind, from 20 to 120 yards. Do your own video if you want, I have zero interest in making one. We've shot practically every fixed and mechanical head under the same conditions and have settled on what works best for us. If someone wants to shoot mechanical heads, that's their decision.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[5MilesBack]

Do your own video if you want, I have zero interest in making one.

I don't need to make a video, I wasn't the one making the claim.

 

[307]

When you make a claim that opposes known laws of physics, expect for people to ask for proof.

Tim may or may not be a jerk, but he's certainly a jerk/not jerk with a great deal of knowledge, experience, and expertise in the field of archery. I do trust his expertise and what he said makes a lot of sense considering my knowledge of physics.

I think it boils down to this:

Mechanical broadheads increase the chance of a mechanical failure by some (debatable amount) percentage.

Mechanical broadheads decrease the effects of wind, and technique imperfections by some (debatable amount) percentage.

For me, I think technique imperfections in a hunting environment along with weather conditions are really big factors that I would like to minimize as much as possible, even though it means I have to take more of a risk (extremely small IMO with a modern and proven mechanical broadhead) of a mechanical failure. Before anybody chimes in that I should practice more, I do practice, a lot, all year long. I really like shooting and I'm above average at it. (Shooting 295+ on a Vegas face is average for me, for reference) But when hunting, in the mountains with uneven terrain, fatigue, pressure, adrenaline are all factors, I know I won't have my best technique so I choose to mitigate that factor as much as possible.

So, I shoot NAP killzone, low KE. (I chose the low KE for improved penetration on elk despite shooting 74 lb Elite Energy and a 465 grain arrow at 285 fps)

To each his own...