It wasn’t Talley - it’s apparently me. Scope won’t stay fixed - Update: fixed. Added to first post

[SDHNTR]

I’ll say it…. I think rails suck on hunting rifles. But there is a place for them when necessary, and they make mounting a scope much easier. I still much prefer other options. I find most things tacticool super offputting, and deserving of dork status. A hunting rifle should look like a hunting rifle and tactical equipment should remain on the battlefield. We are not at war with game animals, at least I’m not. JMO.

 

[Fatcamp]

A solid rail and decent rings installed properly is as tough as it gets. It's not about how it looks, it's about how it performs.

That said, none of my rifles wear them anymore. The Savages use DNZ Gamereapers, and the Tikkas use Sportsmatch.

 

[Formidilosus]

I’ll say it…. I think rails suck on hunting rifles. But there is a place for them when necessary, and they make mounting a scope much easier. I still much prefer other options. I find most things tacticool super offputting, and deserving of dork status. A hunting rifle should look like a hunting rifle and tactical equipment should remain on the battlefield. We are not at war with game animals, at least I’m not. JMO.

Then how do you use bolt actions at all? They were rifles for war. And lever actions? And pumps?

I mean I get where you are coming from, but it’s not a fleshed out thought.

 

[SDHNTR]

Then how do you use bolt actions at all? They were rifles for war. And lever actions? And pumps?

I mean I get where you are coming from, but it’s not a fleshed out thought.

Haha. Fair point, and I’ll even agree with you. It’s not a rational thought. Purely emotional. I just don’t like the way most tactical stuff looks. And most civilian aficionados (with no need for war fighting equipment) of tactical stuff I find at least annoying and sometimes even frightening. We probably all know a wannabe Rambo. I don’t want to like stuff that those douches like. That opinion may not be not well thought out, but I’ll own it.

 

[Balderdash]

Haha. Fair point, and I’ll even agree with you. It’s not a rational thought. Purely emotional. I just don’t like the way most tactical stuff looks. And most civilian aficionados (with no need for war fighting equipment) of tactical stuff I find at least annoying and sometimes even frightening. We probably all know a wannabe Rambo. I don’t want to like stuff that those douches like. That opinion may not be not well thought out, but I’ll own it.

SD:

I fully get where you are coming from. I still appreciate a nice blued-walnut rig with a svelte gloss scope, and I do a fair amount of hunting and shooting with such rigs every year.

For the same reasons you listed, I was in a phase wherein I didn't care for the looks of a rail on a hunting rig and I used different systems to avoid them. These days my attitude has changed; in the context of setting up a rifle for longer range shooting, if a rig can have a higher level of precision/ruggedness/usability by being set up a certain way, I really don't care what it ultimately looks like.

I've been using more and more solid top receivers for rigs that will be used for long shots, and a pic rail doesn't really adversely affect the aesthetics and functionality of them, anyway.

 

[Bluto]

I think that’s the rub - “long range shooting” fads and the drawbacks of them.

My only issue with it is that it’s pushed as an all positive thing, and it isn’t. There are drawbacks, other than just the increased weight (which can be enough in some applications.) I settled for a rail and pic rings because I got myself into a time crunch. It holds. It also makes loading a pain in the rear and it obscures the chamber of the rifle without coming completely off of the gun. True for every rifle? Not likely. But it’s undeniably true on my bolt action 308.

I think there are functional solutions and there are optimal solutions. 2.5 pound ATACR scopes, anti cant bubbles, sunshades, and rails everywhere is functional, but isn’t optimal for hunting conditions and ranges. Shooting stationary steel plates at 800 or 1000 meters in a controlled environment? I’d say the opposite is true. You probably want some weight, and a system that aids in accuracy the large majority of people aren’t capable of. I’d venture to say that most buy the stuff because they think that’s what makes them accurate versus just shooting.

Hey, as long as I don’t have to carry your rifle, put whatever ya like on it

 

[Formidilosus]

Haha. Fair point, and I’ll even agree with you. It’s not a rational thought. Purely emotional. I just don’t like the way most tactical stuff looks. And most civilian aficionados (with no need for war fighting equipment) of tactical stuff I find at least annoying and sometimes even frightening. We probably all know a wannabe Rambo. I don’t want to like stuff that those douches like. That opinion may not be not well thought out, but I’ll own it.

I get it. “Taste”; there’s no accounting for it. The picatinny system is a better way to mount a scope than most others. Integral rails are better, but most manufactures haven’t figured that out. My recent foray into the Pre64 M70 and correct scope with mounts has again highlighted how much better the tools are now.

Really it’s not “tactical”, it’s classless/soulless/craftsmanshipless/etc. It’s hard to make a full metal chassis rifle have craftsmanship- I think that’s the issue. Or at least it seems to me to be the issue.

 

[HighUintas]

This is analogous to the golden age American long rifles being functional works of art... Then came along the plains rifles (Hawken being most well known) at the start of the percussion era that were plain and built to be used in the harsher environments of the west. Comparatively, they were probably considered ugly as balls and douchy by the older flinter guys at the time who thought the lack of artful embellishment in the rifle build was necessary for an overall high quality rifle.

Weird to think... The Hawken brother's rifles may have been considered douchy in the 1840s.

 

[Bluto]

Apples and oranges.

That rifle development was a leap in firearm technology. The gross majority of the tactical rail market purchase is aesthetic. If it were purely functional, as Form and others have alluded to, they’d build the rifles with integral rails. But that wouldn’t look very Navy Seal Recon Scout Sniper Black Ops.

 

[HighUintas]

I'm referring to the start of the plain halfstock rifle era. Not specifically percussion even though it sounded that way. The plain Jane half stock rifle may have been considered douchy by some... Even though it was very functionally sound and durable.

Anyway, this has been an interesting thread. It caused me to remount my swfa scope last night with a 25in/lb torque setting

 

[Bluto]

I hear ya.

I’m glad something good came of it!

 

[SDHNTR]

I get it. “Taste”; there’s no accounting for it. The picatinny system is a better way to mount a scope than most others. Integral rails are better, but most manufactures haven’t figured that out. My recent foray into the Pre64 M70 and correct scope with mounts has again highlighted how much better the tools are now.

Really it’s not “tactical”, it’s classless/soulless/craftsmanshipless/etc. It’s hard to make a full metal chassis rifle have craftsmanship- I think that’s the issue. Or at least it seems to me to be the issue.

Agree on both accounts.

 

[Formidilosus]

The gross majority of the tactical rail market purchase is aesthetic. If it were purely functional, as Form and others have alluded to, they’d build the rifles with integral rails.

Why? We still have the majority being ok with scopes that don’t hold zero, rifles that don’t feed, fire, extract, or eject correctly; triggers that don’t work in foul weather and aren’t drop safe, etc, etc. Americans love cheap junk.

Integral rails/scope mounting isn’t unusual where people expect their rifles to work correctly.

 

[Bluto]

100% true. Look at the junk flying off the shelves from Amazon.

 

[BRTreedogs]

The reason a rail is blocky and may partially block the chamber, weighs more etc,.
It much easier to keep square and true, it spreads the load, it stiffens the action. It has nothing to do with looking cool.
These are all values that are attributes of performance and repeatability.

Take a 6 ft 2x4 and screw a 2ft footer on top with 4 screws.
Then do another with 2 one foot pieces, see which one twists, folds and tears apart easier?

A rail is physically better in all aspects except maybe loading and ADL rifle.

 

[BRTreedogs]

All I can say is I mounted a 30 oz scope on my 6.5 with rail. Zeroed it and made hits in a 12" plate at 717 in 14 rounds.

 

[fwafwow]

Why? We still have the majority being ok with scopes that don’t hold zero, rifles that don’t feed, fire, extract, or eject correctly; triggers that don’t work in foul weather and aren’t drop safe, etc, etc. Americans love cheap junk.

Integral rails/scope mounting isn’t unusual where people expect their rifles to work correctly.

Maybe you have already done this, or if not it’s asking too much, but have you written about rifles that don’t have those problems the way you have reviewed and written about scopes?

 

[Bluto]

All I can say is I mounted a 30 oz scope on my 6.5 with rail. Zeroed it and made hits in a 12" plate at 717 in 14 rounds.

I have zero doubt, nor a reason to question it.

But that’s very suboptimal for a 308 hunting rifle. No chance I’d lug around a 30oz scope, nor need a reason to mount it. The SWFA at 19oz is heavier than I’d like.

And if I use the two footers in your 2x4 example as intended, and don’t drop it off of a cliff, it would work just fine.

 

[Formidilosus]

Maybe you have already done this, or if not it’s asking too much, but have you written about rifles that don’t have those problems the way you have reviewed and written about scopes?

Similar, though not identical. Basically any action that uses a R700 compatible trigger has major flaws with no other attributes addressed. Most have major feed and function issues. Abolt and X bolt triggers are sensitive to ice/sludge. Savages are garbage across the board in reliability and durability. Howa’s are ok, tigger and action starts squawking with sand/dust/snow.

To be short, if you want a rifle action, trigger, and stock that was actually tested by the manufacturer and has a high probability of working correctly buy a European or Scandinavian made one. Next best would be a M70 gone over by a legit M70 smith.

 

[Bluto]

So - Sako/Tikka or…? My curiosity is piqued.