It wasn’t Talley - it’s apparently me. Scope won’t stay fixed - Update: fixed. Added to first post

[fwafwow]

This thread has caused me to remember a challenge I faced with mounting space and bases. I think I had suppressed that ordeal, but now I'm revisiting with the bases, pic rail vs. aesthetics, eye relief, etc. all coming back to me.... and this time I've got the burden/benefit of having a better idea from Form's work as to what are better options.

I think this merits a separate thread to stop from hijacking the OP...

 

[Balderdash]

Is it wrong to put a SWFA on a Blah-zer?

Items that work as they're supposed to are always in style; likewise, so is hitting what you're aiming at.

 

[Bluto]

If that’s the case, it isn’t because the barrel is thin it’s because it isn’t properly stress relieved, bad fitment, and/or bad bedding. Temperamental guns, tend to become temperamental at the exact wrong moment.

Yeah it’s not my favorite right now, which is disappointing for what it is. It would be nice to find a reliable factory rifle for less than $1500. I guess my next attempt will be a tikka. Which is as exciting as buying a Ford Taurus.

“Here, son. I’m passing this down. It’s on blocks in the yard, but it got me to work. You’re welcome.”

 

[Formidilosus]

Yeah it’s not my favorite right now, which is disappointing for what it is. It would be nice to find a reliable factory rifle for less than $1500. I guess my next attempt will be a tikka. Which is as exciting as buying a Ford Taurus.

“Here, son. I’m passing this down. It’s on blocks in the yard, but it got me to work. You’re welcome.”

Is a Weatherby really any different in that regard? It’s just an assembled synthetic stocked rifle. If you want something to hand down, an actual custom is it: that is hand built, with a stock (generally wood), that was fitted and contoured to fit you.
None of the modern guns are “custom”. They are off the shelf production parts assembled like an AR15. Very few modern assembled rifles have “nostalgia”. The ones that are, are because of how much work was done with them, how beat up (used) they are, and those memories.

 

[Bluto]

Is a Weatherby really any different in that regard? It’s just an assembled synthetic stocked rifle. If you want something to hand down, an actual custom is it: that is hand built, with a stock (generally wood), that was fitted and contoured to fit you.
None of the modern guns are “custom”. They are off the shelf production parts assembled like an AR15. Very few modern assembled rifles have “nostalgia”. The ones that are, are because of how much work was done with them, how beat up (used) they are, and those memories.

It should be. Or at least probably was. Dad has a lever action 30-30 that’s been running like a clock since the early 70’s. After me it will probably still be doing the same for my son. (Not the only example.)

Why is it so difficult? They all certainly charge enough for the product.

Nostalgia aside, a $1500-$2000 rifle should work. Remington, Weatherby, Winchester, Sako, whatever. If I buy a 9mm Hi-Point, maybe not so much. I don’t disagree with you, mostly just prodding for info as much as you and a few others see.

 

[Formidilosus]

It should be. Or at least probably was. Dad has a lever action 30-30 that’s been running like a clock since the early 70’s. After me it will probably still be doing the same for my son. (Not the only example.)

I mean is a modern synthetic stoked, assembled Weatherby really different in the “hand me down”, nostalgic mode than a modern synthetic stocked, assembled Tikka? I can’t see how, except one tends to work better than the other. Cost doesn’t have anything to do with it- there is no “soul” to a Gunwerks or any other rifle of similar.

The 30-30 sure- it has memories, and actually had someone touch it to manufacture it. It also helps that it has a wood stock.

Why is it so difficult? They all certainly charge enough for the product.

Nostalgia aside, a $1500-$2000 rifle should work. Remington, Weatherby, Winchester, Sako, whatever. If I buy a 9mm Hi-Point, maybe not so much. I don’t disagree with you, mostly just prodding for info as much as you and a few others see.

Of course they should. But, how would they? None of these manufacturers actually test anything…. Just like scopes. They design- using computers, then CNC machine the things, then hope they work. And most “work” ok enough for the average user because the average user isn’t doing much. As soon as you start to ask something more of them, shortcomings pop up pretty quick.

 

[SDHNTR]

If you can’t get down with a Tikka (and I can’t either, for similar reasons), buy a Winchester M70 Classic. It’s about as close as it gets to what you are looking for. Classic looks, reliable function. Yes, you will have to shop used, but they’re out there. The advantage of the Classic over the currently available M70’s (which are still pretty darn good) is the older style open trigger which is more reliable in dirty or icy conditions. Easy to adjust too.

So if I were spending your money, I’d find a gently used one for $7-800. First, I’d give it a good baseline cleaning and have the receiver tapped out to bigger 8/40 screws ($50-75), optional but cheap insurance Imo, and then I’d take it out and shoot it to see how it did. You might get lucky. It’ll probably do MOA ish with the right ammo, which sounds perfectly adequate for your needs.

If there’s room for improvement, bed the stock and float the barrel (or pay a smith $150 ish to do it) and adjust the trigger down to 2.5lb ish ($75). Easy DIY jobs too and fun to learn. I’ll even walk you through it. Or even buy a better, stiffer, fiberglass stock ($350-600). Odds are that will make it shoot nicely. If it still is not satisfactory, $5-600 for a new barrel and cut chamber and you now pretty much have a custom rifle that absolutely will shoot well. You’ve ruled out most all pertinent variables.

My experience with Weatherby’s is very similar to yours. A little better than average off the shelf quality and fit and finish, just ok accuracy. Barrels that are very heat sensitive. I’ve owned 2 Mark 5’s and 1 Vanguard, and a Howa (same thing as Vanguard). One MK5 was a great shooter but kicked like hell as the stock didn’t work well for me. One was a Lightweight and was an ok shooter (3 shots inchish) and then got hot and sprayed bullets all over. One Howa was stupid accurate off the rack, the other sprayed bullets all over. On the latter, it had the worst inletting fitment of any rifle I’ve ever seen. I got crazy with a dremel tool, slopped in buckets of epoxy and fully bedded it all the way out the barrel channel. Then I sanded and floated out the barrel. After that it was one of the best shooters that’s ever been through my hands.

Your same question, could also be directed at cars/trucks or anything mass produced, some are good, some are duds. And sometimes even spending more money doesn’t rule out the duds. Some things just need a personal touch to work out the kinks.

 

[Fatcamp]

It should be. Or at least probably was. Dad has a lever action 30-30 that’s been running like a clock since the early 70’s. After me it will probably still be doing the same for my son. (Not the only example.)

Why is it so difficult? They all certainly charge enough for the product.

Nostalgia aside, a $1500-$2000 rifle should work. Remington, Weatherby, Winchester, Sako, whatever. If I buy a 9mm Hi-Point, maybe not so much. I don’t disagree with you, mostly just prodding for info as much as you and a few others see.

Honestly, Hi-point might be ugly, but they darn sure run.

 

[Balderdash]

If you can’t get down with a Tikka (and I can’t either, for similar reasons), buy a Winchester M70 Classic. It’s about as close as it gets to what you are looking for. Classic looks, reliable function. Yes, you will have to shop used, but they’re out there. The advantage of the Classic over the currently available M70’s (which are still pretty darn good) is the older style open trigger which is more reliable in dirty or icy conditions. Easy to adjust too.

So if I were spending your money, I’d find a gently used one for $7-800. First, I’d give it a good baseline cleaning and have the receiver tapped out to bigger 8/40 screws ($50-75), optional but cheap insurance Imo, and then I’d take it out and shoot it to see how it did. You might get lucky. It’ll probably do MOA ish with the right ammo, which sounds perfectly adequate for your needs.

If there’s room for improvement, bed the stock and float the barrel (or pay a smith $150 ish to do it) and adjust the trigger down to 2.5lb ish ($75). Easy DIY jobs too and fun to learn. I’ll even walk you through it. Or even buy a better, stiffer, fiberglass stock ($350-600). Odds are that will make it shoot nicely. If it still is not satisfactory, $5-600 for a new barrel and cut chamber and you now pretty much have a custom rifle that absolutely will shoot well. You’ve ruled out most all pertinent variables.

My experience with Weatherby’s is very similar to yours. A little better than average off the shelf quality and fit and finish, just ok accuracy. Barrels that are very heat sensitive. I’ve owned 2 Mark 5’s and 1 Vanguard, and a Howa (same thing as Vanguard). One MK5 was a great shooter but kicked like hell as the stock didn’t work well for me. One was a Lightweight and was an ok shooter (3 shots inchish) and then got hot and sprayed bullets all over. One Howa was stupid accurate off the rack, the other sprayed bullets all over. On the latter, it had the worst inletting fitment of any rifle I’ve ever seen. I got crazy with a dremel tool, slopped in buckets of epoxy and fully bedded it all the way out the barrel channel. Then I sanded and floated out the barrel. After that it was one of the best shooters that’s ever been through my hands.

Your same question, could also be directed at cars/trucks or anything mass produced, some are good, some are duds. And sometimes even spending more money doesn’t rule out the duds. Some things just need a personal touch to work out the kinks.

SD:

I've had a bunch of MKV's in various iterations through the years, and my experiences with them pretty well mirrored yours. A few shot well, a few required some work to get there. Generally I've found that they usually require some fine tuning and, depending on your accuracy expectations, can be finicky about ammo. I'm currently down to 1 MKV - a 300 Win in an ULW. Like yours, it can cut some great 3 shot groups, but after that it starts spreading them out. I keep it mainly for nostalgic reasons. Doesn't get more than a group or two a year and it hasn't been on a hunt in years.

Sometime back I bought a Tikka to see what all the fuss was about. It cut tiny groups right out of the box with a number of factory ammo offerings. Then I set a few more up for friends and family. Was more of the same with them. Bought a couple more for myself and it's been more of the same as far as tight groups. They're usually not finicky, and while I've upgraded the stocks, bottom metal, and mags on a couple of mine, they don't require much for tweaking to get the best groups out of them. They're also very rugged. For the foreseeable future, unless I need more COAL, I won't likely mess with any other actions until they start building the S20 in LH. I know they take all the bedding, adding springs and stoning the trigger, free floating, etc, fun out of getting the most out of a rig, but that just leaves more trigger time.

 

[yycyak]

This is the part that I learned late.

How do you want to spend your time? Tinkering? Testing? Driving back and forth to the range to try a new combo?

Or do you want to hunt and spend time in the field?

Buy good gear, buy gear that stays zeroed, buy gear that can take a ding or two and keep going, buy gear that doesn't need hardly any maintenance or upkeep. And then be finished with gear. Go hunt instead.

Focus on spending every dollar you have on getting out to the field, and not stuck in your basement reloading room burning time tinkering and adjusting. Burning $$$ on gas and losing your weekends to another failed adjustment...

I don't love Tikka (Mausers will always have my eye.) But Tikkas are damn easy to set up and zero, and then never touch again. They just work, and need zero fuss.

The amount of time and money I've spent in my reloading room would easily have bought me at least two DIY fly-in hunts. Maybe even three. And I'd much rather have had those hunts vs the (failed) tinkering that I have instead.

SD:

... [snip] but that just leaves more trigger time.

 

[Bluto]

I mean is a modern synthetic stoked, assembled Weatherby really different in the “hand me down”, nostalgic mode than a modern synthetic stocked, assembled Tikka? I can’t see how, except one tends to work better than the other. Cost doesn’t have anything to do with it- there is no “soul” to a Gunwerks or any other rifle of similar.

The 30-30 sure- it has memories, and actually had someone touch it to manufacture it. It also helps that it has a wood stock.

Fair enough. I can’t argue much with that. I think it maybe comes down to more of what you (and @SD Hunter) mention below.

Of course they should. But, how would they? None of these manufacturers actually test anything…. Just like scopes. They design- using computers, then CNC machine the things, then hope they work. And most “work” ok enough for the average user because the average user isn’t doing much. As soon as you start to ask something more of them, shortcomings pop up pretty quick.

This is the rub. Expectations. Apparently silly on my part these days. I honestly wouldn’t have known if someone had asked me a year ago about W’by. Disappointed a bit, but then again I’m also guilty as charged of being that average user.

On the good side, I guess, it’s driven a lot of research and reading on my part.

@SD Hunter thanks for sharing that part. Unless I’m misremembering, it seems like there are many who would agree with the old M70 thoughts. Might be a good pursuit. Actually sounds kinda fun for off season tinkering, and definitely something to hold on to.

That said, as much as I’ve kidded about Tikka, I’ve nothing against them and will probably end up buying one. I honestly had only held off because I held Sako in higher regard but I’d be a lot less butthurt if a Tikka didn’t extract than if I dropped coin on Sako.

I would say I’ll just lower my expectations but I think I won’t.

 

[fwafwow]

Fair enough. I can’t argue much with that. I think it maybe comes down to more of what you (and @SD Hunter) mention below.


This is the rub. Expectations. Apparently silly on my part these days. I honestly wouldn’t have known if someone had asked me a year ago about W’by. Disappointed a bit, but then again I’m also guilty as charged of being that average user.

On the good side, I guess, it’s driven a lot of research and reading on my part.

@SD Hunter thanks for sharing that part. Unless I’m misremembering, it seems like there are many who would agree with the old M70 thoughts. Might be a good pursuit. Actually sounds kinda fun for off season tinkering, and definitely something to hold on to.

That said, as much as I’ve kidded about Tikka, I’ve nothing against them and will probably end up buying one. I honestly had only held off because I held Sako in higher regard but I’d be a lot less butthurt if a Tikka didn’t extract than if I dropped coin on Sako.

I would say I’ll just lower my expectations but I think I won’t.

I thought the sock-oh problems were for a particular model, not the S20. Otherwise I wasted some time… wait, I waste time all of the time.

 

[SDHNTR]

I thought the sock-oh problems were for a particular model, not the S20. Otherwise I wasted some time… wait, I waste time all of the time.

They are. The ejection problems are with the model 85 primarily, and a scant few 75’s.

Personally, I’d buy a Tikka over an S20. Both are equally soulless, and probably equally effective, so buy the cheaper one.

 

[SDHNTR]

Fair enough. I can’t argue much with that. I think it maybe comes down to more of what you (and @SD Hunter) mention below.


This is the rub. Expectations. Apparently silly on my part these days. I honestly wouldn’t have known if someone had asked me a year ago about W’by. Disappointed a bit, but then again I’m also guilty as charged of being that average user.

On the good side, I guess, it’s driven a lot of research and reading on my part.

@SD Hunter thanks for sharing that part. Unless I’m misremembering, it seems like there are many who would agree with the old M70 thoughts. Might be a good pursuit. Actually sounds kinda fun for off season tinkering, and definitely something to hold on to.

That said, as much as I’ve kidded about Tikka, I’ve nothing against them and will probably end up buying one. I honestly had only held off because I held Sako in higher regard but I’d be a lot less butthurt if a Tikka didn’t extract than if I dropped coin on Sako.

I would say I’ll just lower my expectations but I think I won’t.

I’ve bought and sold dozens of rifles of too many brands to count, but I’ve NEVER sold a M70…. If that means anything. They aren’t perfect, but there’re the best mass produced American rifle by a landslide.

 

[Bluto]

That’s not the first time I’ve read that. I’m gonna go out on a limb and assume pre-64? I’ve seen later models labeled “classic…” Although, I’ve seen some pretty high praise for even the newer ones. (But I guess you never know if they’re paid reviews.)

 

[SDHNTR]

That’s not the first time I’ve read that. I’m gonna go out on a limb and assume pre-64? I’ve seen later models labeled “classic…” Although, I’ve seen some pretty high praise for even the newer ones. (But I guess you never know if they’re paid reviews.)

Pre-64’s are incredible rifles with class and a storied history, but they probably aren’t the most practical. Especially if it’s a nice one. No one wants to beat up a collectors item. Wood stocks and blued steel.

A “Classic” M70 refers to a period between the mid 90’s and 2006 when Model 70 was designed after the famed pre-64, controlled round feed, action. Made in the New Haven,CT plant. For all intents and purposes, they function the same as the pre-64, yet are more practical, come in stainless if you want that, aren’t necessarily collectors pieces, etc. They called it the “Classic” because for the first time since 1964, they brought back the big claw extractor and controlled round feeding that made the pre 64’s so famous. Models 1965-1994(iirc) were push feed designs, with an eye towards cost savings. Still good rifles, but not CRF, which MAKES a M70 in many man’s opinion.

After 2006 M70’s were made by Fabrique Nationale in South Carolina. These are generally less desirable, but still perfectly functional in most cases. They use the same basic design as the “Classic” models. These models do, however, make many M70 enthusiasts cringe due to the overseas heritage.

And now, for the last several years, all M70’s are actually fully produced overseas by FN in Portugal. These are also considered less desirable by M70 nerds due to their closed box trigger design, but IMO, are still better than most production guns. Anecdotally, in my experience, they also tend to be the most accurate off the shelf than previous vintages.

Pick your poison.

 

[Bluto]

Pre-64’s are incredible rifles with class and a storied history, but they probably aren’t the most practical. Especially if it’s a nice one. No one wants to beat up a collectors item. Wood stocks and blued steel.

A “Classic” M70 refers to a period between the mid 90’s and 2006 when Model 70 was designed after the famed pre-64, controlled round feed, action. Made in the New Haven,CT plant. For all intents and purposes, they function the same as the pre-64, yet are more practical, come in stainless if you want that, aren’t necessarily collectors pieces, etc. They called it the “Classic” because for the first time since 1964, they brought back the big claw extractor and controlled round feeding that made the pre 64’s so famous. Models 1965-1994(iirc) were push feed designs, with an eye towards cost savings. Still good rifles, but not CRF, which MAKES a M70 in many man’s opinion.

After 2006 M70’s were made by Fabrique Nationale in South Carolina. These are generally less desirable, but still perfectly functional in most cases. They use the same basic design as the “Classic” models. These models do, however, make many M70 enthusiasts cringe due to the overseas heritage.

And now, for the last several years, all M70’s are actually fully produced overseas by FN in Portugal. These are also considered less desirable by M70 nerds due to their closed box trigger design, but IMO, are still better than most production guns. Anecdotally, in my experience, they also tend to be the most accurate off the shelf than previous vintages.

Pick your poison.

Thanks for the summary, that’s definitely helpful. I did just find some better info that reflects what you mentioned about pre 64 vs the classic models that are pre 64 *style.”

While not a M70 nerd (clearly, lol) I think I’d rather not have an overseas made American rifle. Kinda defeats the purpose.

Also, while it’s normally considered a bad thing I really think this is a pretty successful thread derailment. Nice work everybody!

 

[Bluto]

@SD Hunter here’s one that I can’t quite pick out. How do you decipher manufacture year? Is it a code in the serial number like Swaro binos or something?

 

[SDHNTR]

Yes. That is basically it. There are multiple sites online where you can look up a serial number. The barrel stamp will also tell you a lot. Classic’s say so and are stamped New Haven, Conn.

 

[Formidilosus]

Pre-64’s are incredible rifles with class and a storied history, but they probably aren’t the most practical. Especially if it’s a nice one. No one wants to beat up a collectors item. Wood stocks and blued steel.

Pre 64’s that are well used, beat up, and on their second or third barrel are some of the coolest rifles around- right up there with well done old sporterized Mausers.