Form struck someone’s nerve

[CorbLand]

This is stupid. The debate is tired and annoying. The loud ones on both sides come off as giant, arrogant douches.

My summary…. You have old school, deeply-rooted hunting-based traditions on one side, and then you have new school, cool kid, tactical-shooting-based viewpoints on the other side.

This is just a glimpse into the microcosm that is society these days. Two polarized viewpoints. This is what I don’t understand… Like everything else that gets debated, which is pretty much everything, why is it so hard to recognize that there is merit on both sides?

Imo, like most other things debatable, the best answers lie in the middle. So we have people, mostly younger and due to growing up with the Internet and an easily accessible preponderance of information, who are driven more by “data” and less by experience, then we have people who did not grow up with the www at their fingertips and instead had to rely on experience and traditions passed down from those who went before them. One side says “head stamps don’t kill animals”, bullets do, and small .22-24 caliber, well constructed bullets work best. The other side says “there is no replacement for displacement” and you should use something with “knock down power” and a big .30-.338” wide chunk of lead thrown by something with a belt around its ass. Know what? They are both effing right!

Therefore, the wise man doesn’t the dismiss either side, instead recognizes the merit from each camp, and ultimately lands in the middle.

Ergo pragmatism… use a 6.5 to 7mm, go hunt, be happy and stfu.

Because as a society we have allowed the mentality of "boxes" to take hold. Everyone is trying to put everyone in boxes. If you agree with X, then you must agree with Y, Z, AA, etc. Admitting that there is merit on the other side, removes one from the box and we cant have that. All or nothing, no fence sitting.

Or

Those that can see merit in both sides generally dont say anything because the one side or the other become super annoying. Self preservation takes hold.

Largely the part that baffles me the most with this is people act like Form is telling everyone that they must run out, sell their magnum, do 10 jumping jacks, chant 15 hail marys, sell their soul to the devil and then buy a small caliber gun.

When from my standpoint, it looks more like there is just information about the capabilities of the 6MM and smaller cartridges being provided for people to consider.

If I ever get a new gun, it will probably be a 6CM, largely based on the information that has been provided by Form. Until that day comes, I will keep shooting my 7Mag or my 06.

 

[tater]

I have taken one for Team RS and have now wasted an hour and a half of my life that i will not get back.
Here is a rough paraphrasing of the entire thing.

"I used to be the go to expert for the Exo guys on rifles and such. Now i'm not. I have hurt feelings.

There are mean people on the interwebs that say things i disagree with (and they make the Exo guys not be my acolytes), but i made up a fictional listener from Australia to justify my biases. My new friend Jack fully agrees that i know cool stuff. He is awesome.

I have reached back to pull up anecdotes that prove i am right, and i will not acknowledge the scope and breadth of other potential people's experiences. Because i'm cool. They aren't.

I still have a big poster of Craig Boddington on my wall, and when i look at him with his really big gun my pants feel funny.

Match bullets are dumb. Until i use them. Then they are awesome.

You don't even have to actually hit something with a Barnes bullet to kill it. It's the Chuck Norris of projectiles.

Wallop, authority and frontal diameter mean everything when you shoot stuff in the ass. Which should be expected because as we know killing stuff means EVERYTHING. The process, enjoyment and gift of being outside is secondary to making stuff dead.

I also get kind of emotional when i think of my imaginary friend Jack's (and by default my own) distress caused by people on the interwebs, and i default to such powerful phrases as "piss-ant" and "put your money where your mouth is". This is my strong closer that i spent hours crafting."

 

[Article 4]

I meant his attitude towards new information. I don't need to have taken a class from him to see how he's treating this topic when it challenges what he thinks he knows. Side note: while I am less interested in his classes now that Phillip Velayo left, I bet they're still fantastic.

He brought up a bunch of stuff specifically regarding the testing methodology (rings, scope base, stock/action connection, etc) that if he had actually taken even a cursory glance at the testing he would know those are controlled for. He then replied to someone in the comments of the Youtube version of this podcast episode saying "What makes you think I didn't read up on this?".

So three explanations pop out to me for him talking about those things as issues with the testing.

1. He is not very smart
2. He did not actually do his own research into this in good faith
3. He did do his research and is lying

I personally think he's reasonably smart. I haven't received any indication he's anything other than smart from my limited exposure to the videos I've seen him in. I think you can attest to him not being a liar based on knowing him. That leaves option 2, possibly with his Leupold friend poisoning the water on the little "research" he did which appears to just be asking his preferred authority figure.

Why would he be an expert on this topic? I think he's falling into the trap a lot of self styled "experts" get into where they think their expertise extends further than it actually does.

Wow some real personal vendetta stuff here. Our opinions differ greatly which is fine....no harm in that.

I am sure he will sleep well at night knowing you think he is reasonably smart, given your admitted limited exposure and knowledge.

Agree on some who are self-styled experts....they abound. Expertise is tough to qualify...although i would tend to have more respect for someone like Caylen that uses his name and background as his basis and stands in the open rather than some who hides behind an anonymous thread name and is a so called expert.

Cheers

 

[UngulateGuardian797]

Those are some nice rigs...You plan on doing some self testing on some gel?

Yeah; it’ll take some time to afford it all, but it’ll be a nice base to have in my hunting and shooting toolbox.

Yes, I will be doing gel testing on it and at extended ranges even if I have to pack it out there on my back. I’m pretty fortunate to live in an area that I can target shoot far. I want to test expansion way out there and document it.

 

[rookieforever33]

is this considered a small caliber if its stuffed with 77tmks?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

You think or you know what kind of teacher he is? Have you taken one of his classes? Have you ever spoken at length with the man?
Nothing in my 15 years of knowing Caylen would ever let me to believe he does anything half cocked.

I have never met a so called "expert" that didn't have an ego. Those on this forum included...

Who, would you say, on this forum in particular has called themselves an "expert"? Please quote it.

 

[Article 4]

Who, would you say, on this forum in particular has called themselves an "expert"? Please quote it.

Since you called it out, I have direct and personal ineractions that I can speak to with @Formidilosus - while he may not have said expert, he presents himself, interacts with people and comments on topics as if his opinion is the final word on any subject. That his data is irrefutable and as such by definition is an expert.

 

[wyosam]

Because as a society we have allowed the mentality of "boxes" to take hold. Everyone is trying to put everyone in boxes. If you agree with X, then you must agree with Y, Z, AA, etc. Admitting that there is merit on the other side, removes one from the box and we cant have that. All or nothing, no fence sitting.

Or

Those that can see merit in both sides generally dont say anything because the one side or the other become super annoying. Self preservation takes hold.

Largely the part that baffles me the most with this is people act like Form is telling everyone that they must run out, sell their magnum, do 10 jumping jacks, chant 15 hail marys, sell their soul to the devil and then buy a small caliber gun.

When from my standpoint, it looks more like there is just information about the capabilities of the 6MM and smaller cartridges being provided for people to consider.

If I ever get a new gun, it will probably be a 6CM, largely based on the information that has been provided by Form. Until that day comes, I will keep shooting my 7Mag or my 06.

That is a great explanation, that fits this scenario well. It also applies to just about anything else. I’ve always said, if you don’t disagree with your “side” (or group/family/whatever else) on a few things, you’re probably not doing much thinking about things yourself and are outsourcing thought to the group.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

This is stupid. The debate is tired and annoying. The loud ones on both sides come off as giant, arrogant douches.

My summary…. You have old school, deeply-rooted hunting-based traditions on one side, and then you have new school, cool kid, tactical-shooting-based viewpoints on the other side.

This is just a glimpse into the microcosm that is society these days. Two polarized viewpoints. This is what I don’t understand… Like everything else that gets debated, which is pretty much everything, why is it so hard to recognize that there is merit on both sides?

Imo, like most other things debatable, the best answers lie in the middle. So we have people, mostly younger and due to growing up with the Internet and an easily accessible preponderance of information, are driven more by “data” and less by experience. Then opposing them, we have people who did not grow up with the www at their fingertips and who instead had to rely on experience and traditions passed down from those who went before them. One side says “head stamps don’t kill animals”, bullets do, and small .22-24 caliber, well constructed bullets work best. The other side says “there is no replacement for displacement” and you should use something with “knock down power” and a big .30-.338” wide chunk of lead thrown by something with a belt around its ass. Know what? They are both effing right!

Therefore, the wise man doesn’t the dismiss either side, instead recognizes the merit from each camp, and ultimately lands in the middle.

Ergo pragmatism… use a 6.5 to 7mm, go hunt, be happy and stfu.

I think if more folks went out and killed, instead of "podcasted" or posted on the internet, the world would be a better place.

I appreciate differing opinions and experiences IN REAL LIFE, when somebody is next to you with a gun ready to shoot or kill and see what happens.

On podcasts and the internet, everyone thinks they are being "attacked" or their "authority is being questioned" when in real life, if you go shoot together, and learn a thing or three from each other, you start to realize that most dudes who have a Rokslide account are pretty cool folks to hang with compared to the VAST majority of the "hunting world".

 

[Article 4]

I think if more folks went out and killed, instead of "podcasted" or posted on the internet, the world would be a better place.

I appreciate differing opinions and experiences IN REAL LIFE, when somebody is next to you with a gun ready to shoot or kill and see what happens.

On podcasts and the internet, everyone thinks they are being "attacked" or their "authority is being questioned" when in real life, if you go shoot together, and learn a thing or three from each other, you start to realize that most dudes who have a Rokslide account are pretty cool folks to hang with compared to the VAST majority of the "hunting world".

Agree. I like the sharing of data and opinions. Even like it more when it is done in good spirit!
Glad there is a forum for it, no matter what takes place.
Disagreements aren't always personal.

I would go shoot with anyone here. No questions asked.

 

[SDHNTR]

I think if more folks went out and killed, instead of "podcasted" or posted on the internet, the world would be a better place.

No truer words may ever have been spoken on this website. Podcasts and influencers make me want to puke.

 

[JohnJohnson]

Wow some real personal vendetta stuff here. Our opinions differ greatly which is fine....no harm in that.

It's not personal for me to just point out where he's failing in his logic. You seem to know/like the guy and that's fine but if anything doesn't that make you the one who it's personal for? You can't just pull the Uno reverse card and put that on me.

I am sure he will sleep well at night knowing you think he is reasonably smart, given your admitted limited exposure and knowledge.

You're not addressing anything I laid out about what he said. I don't think I earned the passive aggressive sniping at me instead of just telling me what I said that doesn't make sense. Caylen could shoot circles around me with a blindfold on. That does not mean he's an expert on this very narrow subject.

although i would tend to have more respect for someone like Caylen that uses his name and background as his basis

What part of his background gives him knowledge about the Rokslide drop-testing he was talking about this episode? Outside of knowing a guy from Leupold, a company who hates the drop-testing, who said it's dumb.

rather than some who hides behind an anonymous thread name and is a so called expert.

I am not an expert in this. I am only pointing out that he does not even have a cursory understanding of the testing. Which I do have. That doesn't make me anything more than someone who can read and understand words. Something which Caylen did not do and is seemingly too prideful to admit.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

No truer words may ever have been spoken on this website. Podcasts and influencers make me want to puke.

I'm so glad I never got into facebooks or instagrams or any of those other sites. I'm also glad that "podcast" format isn't my cup of tea... In person learning and training is the way, specifically with shooting and hunting.

 

[Article 4]

It's not personal for me to just point out where he's failing in his logic. You seem to know/like the guy and that's fine but if anything doesn't that make you the one who it's personal for? You can't just pull the Uno reverse card and put that on me.

You're not addressing anything I laid out about what he said. I don't think I earned the passive aggressive sniping at me instead of just telling me what I said that doesn't make sense. Caylen could shoot circles around me with a blindfold on. That does not mean he's an expert on this very narrow subject.

What part of his background gives him knowledge about the Rokslide drop-testing he was talking about this episode? Outside of knowing a guy from Leupold, a company who hates the drop-testing, who said it's dumb.

I am not an expert in this. I am only pointing out that he does not even have a cursory understanding of the testing. Which I do have. That doesn't make me anything more than someone who can read and understand words. Something which Caylen did not do and is seemingly too prideful to admit.

Appreciate the detailed reply. Opinions vary and I appreciate your view on this subject
...no real reason to go any deeper.

Cheers!

 

[HuntHarder]

This debate will never be settled. To each their own I suppose. Kill with what you think you need to kill with. I can't help but think this has turned into a "likes" or "clicks" topic now. I will not listen to the podcast and participate.

 

[Ucsdryder]

Who, would you say, on this forum in particular has called themselves an "expert"? Please quote it.

when you have items being sold that say “X member approved” don’t you think people are labeling themselves experts?

I agree with every other thing you posted though. Go kill a bunch of sheet and you’ll quickly learn what works and doesn’t.

 

[huntnful]

This debate will never be settled. To each their own I suppose. Kill with what you think you need to kill with. I can't help but think this has turned into a "likes" or "clicks" topic now. I will not listen to the podcast and participate.

Nailed it 100%

 

[Article 4]

when you have items being sold that say “X member approved” don’t you think people are labeling themselves experts?

I agree with every other thing you posted though. Go kill a bunch of sheet and you’ll quickly learn what works and doesn’t.

true

 

[Freezing Moon]

I'm surprised that no one has connected the dots between "Jack" and Nathan Foster of Terminal Ballistics Research. I don't know if it's the same guy, but if so he has the raw body count to know what he's talking about -- unlike JVB.

 

[Brontosaurus]

I took the hit and am halfway through the pod. Basically he's spewing fuddlore. Arguments against small cals are the same as the drive by fudds, who cant wrap their head around the 223 thread.