Form struck someone’s nerve

[Article 4]

Amen to this! This is what I want.

I personally am working towards building 3 nearly identical rifles.

1.) .223 trainer with 53 gr. Vmaxs to double as a coyote rig
2.) 6 Creed or PRC shooting 109 ELDMs
3.) 300 RUM to push a 208 ELDM fast and buck wind for the extended range shots.

All setup on Zermatt Origins with MDT HNT26s and topped with a high quality and reliable optic that maxes out at around 20-25 power.

Those are some nice rigs...You plan on doing some self testing on some gel?

 

[WeiserBucks]

Question...

Has anyone ever scientifically defined where small/piss-ant calibers end and large/whalloping calibers begin? Is it a matter of caliber, bullet weight, whether or not it's a magnum, or some combination?

I'll guess 300 Win Mag. That's what most people think you'll need for elk.

 

[wind gypsy]

BULLSHIT! Packed snow and ice on the road are slicker than goose shit.

Truth! In that whole leupy thread back n forth about how if you cant stay on your feet you shouldn't be hunting yada yada all i could think about was how my drop test approved SWFA got wrecked from taking a fall on an icy road haha.

 

[Choupique]

Question...

Has anyone ever scientifically defined where small/piss-ant calibers end and large/whalloping calibers begin? Is it a matter of caliber, bullet weight, whether or not it's a magnum, or some combination?

Around rokslide 6.5 creedmoor seems to be about the cuttoff

 

[Dave_S]

Question...

Has anyone ever scientifically defined where small/piss-ant calibers end and large/whalloping calibers begin? Is it a matter of caliber, bullet weight, whether or not it's a magnum, or some combination?

I think it's best defined the way a supreme court justice once described pornography: I know it when I see it.

 

[hikenhunt]

I pulled a similar move years ago and hit my head on the ice. Probably explains alot about me.

My father-in-law knocked himself out cold in his own driveway last winter. We laugh about it now, but it can get serious quick when something like that happens.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Around rokslide 6.5 creedmoor seems to be about the cuttoff

Nah 10 years ago my .260 Rem “was nowhere near enough” for elk, yet, somehow I still killed them every year. Maybe it’s changed?

 

[JBradley500]

JVB is the wallop authority. Just ask him.

Side note, I've never heard anyone ever tell a story from 30+ years ago with such detail and confidence. It's almost like he's... making up stories to make money? I don't think Joseph Smith would approve.

 

[5811]

Jvb does some variation of "What is the best caliber for _______" on about 75 podcasts and blogs a year.

What's he going to do if the answer is as simple as "6mm for everything"? Is he going to have to come up with new and compelling content?!?! WtF for?!?

He's going to ride his Bill Engvall "here's your sign!" schick 'till he's retired.

 

[GSPHUNTER]

Like Al Bundy said, don't know don't care.

 

[wyosam]

Jvb does some variation of "What is the best caliber for _______" on about 75 podcasts and blogs a year.

What's he going to do if the answer is as simple as "6mm for everything"? Is he going to have to come up with new and compelling content?!?! WtF for?!?

He's going to ride his Bill Engvall "here's your sign!" schick 'till he's retired.

Yep, it’s typical gunwriter drivel in a new format.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[KenLee]

"His tone remained pretty neutral until the end where he kind of bizarrely goes off on a rant about "piss ant" calibers and "putting your money where your mouth is".

Folks laugh about piss ant calibers, but no one will hang around to be shot with one...hell even in the foot.

 

[Article 4]

I don't think a single one of those people wants to have any conversation with Ryan or Form. Let alone a recorded one.

I would LOVE it if it happened! Knowing Caylens background, my sense is they wouldn't.

 

[JohnJohnson]

I would LOVE it if it happened! Knowing Caylens background, my sense is they wouldn't.

I think Caylen went off half-cocked on the issue based on information his Leupold friend gave him. Now he's just doubling down because it would take a lot of humility to admit he's not a font of information on this topic.

It tells me what kind of teacher he is, in a way. Some control their ego and would approach this as "This sounds crazy but I should nonetheless look into it in good faith because I owe that to my students." However he seems to take it as a challenge to his authority.

 

[Article 4]

I think Caylen went off half-cocked on the issue based on information his Leupold friend gave him. Now he's just doubling down because it would take a lot of humility to admit he's not a font of information on this topic.

It tells me what kind of teacher he is, in a way. Some control their ego and would approach this as "This sounds crazy but I should nonetheless look into it in good faith because I owe that to my students." However he seems to take it as a challenge to his authority.

You think or you know what kind of teacher he is? Have you taken one of his classes? Have you ever spoken at length with the man?
Nothing in my 15 years of knowing Caylen would ever let me to believe he does anything half cocked.

I have never met a so called "expert" that didn't have an ego. Those on this forum included...

 

[Bluumoon]

Question...

Has anyone ever scientifically defined where small/piss-ant calibers end and large/whalloping calibers begin? Is it a matter of caliber, bullet weight, whether or not it's a magnum, or some combination?

.223 on steel at 700 = tink
.22 CM = TINK
6.5 CM =domph
.308 win = DOmph
30-06 =dong
7PRC= DONGGGG
I’d say somewhere around 30-06

 

[JohnJohnson]

You think or you know what kind of teacher he is?

I meant his attitude towards new information. I don't need to have taken a class from him to see how he's treating this topic when it challenges what he thinks he knows. Side note: while I am less interested in his classes now that Phillip Velayo left, I bet they're still fantastic.

Nothing in my 15 years of knowing Caylen would ever let me to believe he does anything half cocked.

He brought up a bunch of stuff specifically regarding the testing methodology (rings, scope base, stock/action connection, etc) that if he had actually taken even a cursory glance at the testing he would know those are controlled for. He then replied to someone in the comments of the Youtube version of this podcast episode saying "What makes you think I didn't read up on this?".

So three explanations pop out to me for him talking about those things as issues with the testing.

1. He is not very smart
2. He did not actually do his own research into this in good faith
3. He did do his research and is lying

I personally think he's reasonably smart. I haven't received any indication he's anything other than smart from my limited exposure to the videos I've seen him in. I think you can attest to him not being a liar based on knowing him. That leaves option 2, possibly with his Leupold friend poisoning the water on the little "research" he did which appears to just be asking his preferred authority figure.

I have never met an a so called "expert" that didnt have an ego. Those on this forum included...

Why would he be an expert on this topic? I think he's falling into the trap a lot of self styled "experts" get into where they think their expertise extends further than it actually does.

 

[Choupique]

You see what all you piss ant shooters don't know about is the taylor knockout factor. It's a good approximation for wallop, which is a good indicator of killing authority. They are better ways to quantify effectiveness than knockdown power, which is now an antiquated unit of measure.

That's why I shoot my big game with a .375 h&h.

 

[SDHNTR]

This is stupid. The debate is tired and annoying. The loud ones on both sides come off as giant, arrogant douches.

My summary…. You have old school, deeply-rooted hunting-based traditions on one side, and then you have new school, cool kid, tactical-shooting-based viewpoints on the other side.

This is just a glimpse into the microcosm that is society these days. Two polarized viewpoints. But this is also what I don’t understand… Like everything else that gets debated, which is pretty much everything, why is it so hard to recognize that there is merit on both sides?

Imo, the best answers lie in the middle. So we have people, mostly younger and due to growing up with the Internet and an easily accessible preponderance of information, are driven more by “data” (or worse yet, some Internet personality and their version of “data”) and less by experience. Then opposing them, we have people who did not grow up with the www at their fingertips and who instead had to rely on experience and traditions passed down from those who went before them. One side says “head stamps don’t kill animals”, bullets do, and small .22-24 caliber, well constructed bullets work best. The other side says “there is no replacement for displacement” and you should use something with “knock down power” and a big .30-.338” wide chunk of lead thrown by something with a belt around its ass. Know what? They are both effing right!

Therefore, the wise man doesn’t the dismiss either side, instead recognizes the merit from each camp, and ultimately lands in the middle.

Ergo pragmatism… use a 6.5 to 7mm, gosh maybe even a .308, go hunt, be happy and stfu.

 

[CorbLand]

This is stupid. The debate is tired and annoying. The loud ones on both sides come off as giant, arrogant douches.

My summary…. You have old school, deeply-rooted hunting-based traditions on one side, and then you have new school, cool kid, tactical-shooting-based viewpoints on the other side.

This is just a glimpse into the microcosm that is society these days. Two polarized viewpoints. This is what I don’t understand… Like everything else that gets debated, which is pretty much everything, why is it so hard to recognize that there is merit on both sides?

Imo, like most other things debatable, the best answers lie in the middle. So we have people, mostly younger and due to growing up with the Internet and an easily accessible preponderance of information, who are driven more by “data” and less by experience, then we have people who did not grow up with the www at their fingertips and instead had to rely on experience and traditions passed down from those who went before them. One side says “head stamps don’t kill animals”, bullets do, and small .22-24 caliber, well constructed bullets work best. The other side says “there is no replacement for displacement” and you should use something with “knock down power” and a big .30-.338” wide chunk of lead thrown by something with a belt around its ass. Know what? They are both effing right!

Therefore, the wise man doesn’t the dismiss either side, instead recognizes the merit from each camp, and ultimately lands in the middle.

Ergo pragmatism… use a 6.5 to 7mm, go hunt, be happy and stfu.

Because as a society we have allowed the mentality of "boxes" to take hold. Everyone is trying to put everyone in boxes. If you agree with X, then you must agree with Y, Z, AA, etc. Admitting that there is merit on the other side, removes one from the box and we cant have that. All or nothing, no fence sitting.

Or

Those that can see merit in both sides generally dont say anything because the one side or the other become super annoying. Self preservation takes hold.

Largely the part that baffles me the most with this is people act like Form is telling everyone that they must run out, sell their magnum, do 10 jumping jacks, chant 15 hail marys, sell their soul to the devil and then buy a small caliber gun.

When from my standpoint, it looks more like there is just information about the capabilities of the 6MM and smaller cartridges being provided for people to consider.

If I ever get a new gun, it will probably be a 6CM, largely based on the information that has been provided by Form. Until that day comes, I will keep shooting my 7Mag or my 06.