CPW - ‘Righting’ some Wrongs

[Jaquomo]

Being a Co native and spending lots of time in the mountains the argument that mountain towns rely on NR dollars hasn’t been true for years, our hills are packed 24/7 with recreational users 365 days a year. Also in the last 5 years folks moved in and live full time in a lot of the smaller mountain towns almost all them doing remote work in what used to be blue collar mountain towns. When shacks in kremmling cost 500k they aren’t relying on hunters filling up or buying a bite as much. Plus a lot of NR hunts I know come with camp fully outfitted or backpack so all they buy is maybe some gas and 1 or 2 meals on the way in and out.

I live in the CO mountains. Hnthrdr is right on the money. There are way more Subaru-Yakima-kayak-mountain bike-granola munchers in our small mountain towns than hunters. "Cabins" around where I live are $400k-1mil. On summer and fall weekends every campground and dispersed camp spot is taken. Hunters used to provide a measurable chunk of annual revenue to some of these towns. Now, the financial contribution is just a bump for a few weeks, and that may only be a couple tanks of gas, a couple cases of beer, a handle of whiskey, and maybe some groceries to supplement what they don't bring from home.

 

[Jaquomo]

Lol Colorado is the next WA, OR, or CA. I bet Colorado resident hunters are doing a great job at the ballot box.

Resident hunters do what we can. But at less than 5% of the population, we are only a flea on a dog's back.

 

[MallardSX2]

The older I get the more I realize that many only really care about themselves. Nothing you can say or do will ever change that. Be it hunting, work, whatever.

That’s easy to say if you’re not the one who has invested several thousands of dollars into the point systems only to have the rug pulled out from under your feet at the 5 yard line.

First Wyoming does it, and now Colorado.

Several of us NR hunters are sour, and rightfully so if you had as much money wrapped up in the points systems as some of us have over 10+ years.

Of course I’m looking out for myself first. Do you think I invested thousand last of dollars into a points system to support decreasing my chances to draw a tag?

I waited my turn in line, paid the fees, played by the rules, and then I am punished for it by getting moved back in line. Then when I get closer, the rules change again. So, ya, it really is about me, and many other NR’s just like me.

 

[Lawnboi]

That’s easy to say if you’re not the one who has invested several thousands of dollars into the point systems only to have the rug pulled out from under your feet at the 5 yard line.

First Wyoming does it, and now Colorado.

Several of us NR hunters are sour, and rightfully so if you had as much money wrapped up in the points systems as some of us have over 10+ years.

Of course I’m looking out for myself first. Do you think I invested over a thousand dollars into a points system to support decreasing my chances to draw a tag?

I waited my turn in line, paid the fees, played by the rules, and then I am punished for it by getting moved back in line. Then when I get closer, the rules change again. So, ya, it really is about me, and many other NR’s just like me.

I have spent thousands. And am not happy about that or the loss of opportunity either.

I’m not a resident btw.

 

[SoloWilderness]

I’ve never in my life seen so much hatred for NR hunters than in this thread… it’s quite appalling that a worldwide forum for hunters can be this unwelcoming.

When I lived in CO, I actually helped NR hunters to fill their tags. Some of those gentlemen went on a hunt of a lifetime (for them) to an OTC elk unit and gave it all they could muster for the off-chance to even see an elk. It was a great privilege of mine to help them see and have opportunities at elk, even if they weren’t of the highest trophy quality. I’ve aided in animal recoveries and pack outs for resident and NR alike. We’re out there sharing the same passion… the last we need is to turn on one of the other small percentage of people on this world who share our same passions.

I can assure you that now as a NR of many Western states that I’ve lived in that I’m more tight-lipped about my hunting areas than many Residents. Any unit I draw takes me significantly more points than any resident, which makes my opportunities far more limited. The last thing I want to do is decrease that opportunity to hunt my favorite species by sharing my preferred hunting units. I count myself an honest man, but I’ll straight up lie to anybody about where I actually hunt out West.

Also, a lot of slander about NR coming in to ruin “your” areas. Maybe you’re not the baddest resident elk hunter around if a lowly NR flat lander can find himself in your honey hole? Even worse if we have the privilege to harvest an animal with our 5 days of vacation while you go without a tag notched after spending all summer with the ability to acclimate and scout it.

Consider for a second that many NR have family in your state, were raised in your state, have previously lived or even spent more time in your state than you have. My favorite places to hunt are all in areas that I’ve lived and it’s nostalgic to have the opportunity to return there once or twice a decade to have the opportunity to hunt land I have great memories enjoying as a resident.

If all NR had this attitude, I think there would be a lot less animosity from the resident hunters. Unfortunately, many of us have had some pretty bad experiences with NR hunters, especially during the OTC rifle seasons (AKA combat hunting), or from our favorite units getting put on blast by those who look at them as once in a while trophy hunt (I'm looking at you Eastman's Hunting Journal). Plenty of poor behavior by locals too, which is worse, because they look at it as an entitlement to drive OHV around gates, leave trash everywhere, take lousy shots and fail to look for wounded game.

This year I actually had a group of NR guys on their first hunt out west camped in a spot I have used frequently. An outfitter dropped them there, and after talking to them for a while, learned the outfitter had put a group in every single drainage. I have more issue with the outfitter in this case than the guys who probably saved for years to have a chance at an elk. Backcountry hunts, I rarely have issues, and those who make it back into our holes earn respect, and we will gladly help them with a packout, a recovery, or a cold beer when they're on day 6 of not seeing a single critter... Resident or not.

Which is the spot these guys were in, they had been put in a bad spot for a drop camp, unless you had intimate knowledge of the game trails and secret paths through the cliffs and canyons. I was packing an animal out, done hunting for the season, and was more than happy to give them some pointers, and a few general areas to try. It would be heartbreaking to spend that kind of money to come hunt, and never see an animal, let alone having a chance at one. They were nice respectful guys and were more than happy to offer a hot cup of coffee to fuel me on the long hike out. I heard a shot the next day on my last trip out up by their camp, in a spot I suggested. I hope they got one, and I hope they become lifelong elk hunters. At the least they got a taste of the work they need to put in to be successful.

Because I agree we need more advocates for wild lands, wild elk and public lands. Because most states have ruined their hunting by selling off all the public land, and making it more about farming deer to shoot, than about hunting. It would be awful for Colorado to go the way of some states, because opportunity to hunt shouldn't be just a privilege for the wealthy, or those lucky enough to have acreage. So those looking to hunt Colorado should probably join RMEF, donate to BHA, or come spend some time in the summer pulling old barb wire off winter ranges. If people aren't willing to give back to the land and the elk, then they probably shouldn't hunt them

That being said, resident tags are pretty cheap, and it wouldn't be the end of the world if the cost was a bit higher to offset some of the lost revenue from a reduction on NR tags.

 

[tdhanses]

Archuleta county (Pagosa) is something like 70%+ second homes. Not too much for jobs outside of service industry and maybe construction. Point being lots of poverty, which seemingly leads to the junk collector/littering situation. That area has nothing on the county I live in as far as the junk collecting goes. I can't stand looking at all the crap around here, but this is very much a live and let live county.

One could make a similar argument (resident vs NR tags) about who should carry the tax needs/burdens of Archeleta County and other playgrounds for Non Residents. Seems like the same argument is happening about every resource all across the West.

Apologies for the rambling. As a CO resident looking to hunt other states I'm happy to have the opportunity and understand giving residents preference.

I would say in Archeleta county nonresidents carry the tax burden of the county already, hear me out, if they own 70% of the property they pay 70% of the property tax, their local spending provides sales tax rev and income tax since they are mainly bank rolling all the service industry jobs for locals.

I wonder if this is similar in other small towns across the state that are tourist destinations.

I would say it is the complete opposite in Alamosa but then let’s go to Steam Boat and I know many people that own homes there as well and Brecke ridge as well, a few owned a 2nd home there before they even moved full time to the Denver area.

 

[tdhanses]

Lol Colorado is the next WA, OR, or CA. I bet Colorado resident hunters are doing a great job at the ballot box.

I would say they must be, only hunters would vote to reintroduce wolves right

 

[tdhanses]

That’s easy to say if you’re not the one who has invested several thousands of dollars into the point systems only to have the rug pulled out from under your feet at the 5 yard line.

First Wyoming does it, and now Colorado.

Several of us NR hunters are sour, and rightfully so if you had as much money wrapped up in the points systems as some of us have over 10+ years.

Of course I’m looking out for myself first. Do you think I invested thousand last of dollars into a points system to support decreasing my chances to draw a tag?

I waited my turn in line, paid the fees, played by the rules, and then I am punished for it by getting moved back in line. Then when I get closer, the rules change again. So, ya, it really is about me, and many other NR’s just like me.

I wouldn’t say CO has done it, they are making a correction that should have happened years ago based on the law, these tags NR got when in reality they shouldn’t have for many years.

This is much much different then what WY has done for the big 5 and will eventually do to DEA.

 

[BeaverHunter]

I’m shocked Colorado gives as many tags as they did and are going to continue to give to non residents in the future. I think Colorado should reduce non resident tags even further if their residents and fish and game agency deem it the best way to manage THEIR wildlife. It sucks as a non resident when your odds to draw get worse but Colorado should do what they think is best for their residents and animals. I’m a lot of points deep into the points game in Wyoming and after their recent non resident changes, I will never draw a sheep tag(as a non resident). It sucks but I can always move to Wyoming and vote for change as a resident if I feel that strongly.

No fish and game agency is holding a gun to any of our heads and making us continue to apply or buy points in their states. We choose to do it voluntarily and each of us can only make the best decision for ourselves going forward fully knowing that opportunities are going to continue to get less every year as non residents.

And I say this as a non resident who applies and has hunted Colorado and will continue to. If I don’t like their rules, I can just stop applying.

 

[dirtytough]

Resident hunters do what we can. But at less than 5% of the population, we are only a flea on a dog's back.

My point was resident hunters aren’t holding any politician accountable. Or the CPW in this case. Like you stated there aren’t enough.

 

[AG8]

That’s easy to say if you’re not the one who has invested several thousands of dollars into the point systems only to have the rug pulled out from under your feet at the 5 yard line.

Serious question for you Mallard:

Do you feel that they should continue using the statistics from 2007-2009 in perpetuity?
If so, what is your justification for doing so?

 

[MallardSX2]

Yes. I feel that when I started applying for points it was “65/35”. That’s the odds that I was buying points for and what should be honored.

Now let me ask you this:

During an away football game, when your team is about to kick the field goal (that may or may not cost you the game) do you think the referee should have a sidebar conversation with the home team coach, then step in and tell you to back up 20 more yards because the home team is complaining that you have an unfair advantage? Who is being the poor sport?

 

[AG8]

Yes. I feel that when I started applying for points it was “65/35”. That’s the odds that I was buying points for and what should be honored.

Now let me ask you this:

During an away football game, when your team is about to kick the field goal (that may or may not cost you the game) do you think the referee should have a sidebar conversation with the home team coach, then step in and tell you to back up 20 more yards because the home team is complaining that you have an unfair advantage? Who is being the poor sport?

Thanks. I was genuinely curious as to what your justification is for using the original dates, given the realities of point creep. It seems quite obvious that the intent of the rule was always that any unit needing 6+ points to be of a different distribution standard. But you are right, that is not what is written. They did not (or chose not to) make that update to the regs after 2010. A classic case of the spirit of the law vs. the letter of it I suppose.

As to your football analogy, sorry, not a realistic comparison. Just comes off as pretty sour grapes, and not a great look.

 

[Archer86]

Yes. I feel that when I started applying for points it was “65/35”. That’s the odds that I was buying points for and what should be honored.

Now let me ask you this:

During an away football game, when your team is about to kick the field goal (that may or may not cost you the game) do you think the referee should have a sidebar conversation with the home team coach, then step in and tell you to back up 20 more yards because the home team is complaining that you have an unfair advantage? Who is being the poor sport?

every year you bought points you could have drawn a tag with the points you had.

You made the discussion to chase a a higher point unit and now you feel you have been cheated. Classic case of buyers remorse!

 

[sndmn11]

Yes. I feel that when I started applying for points it was “65/35”. That’s the odds that I was buying points for and what should be honored.

You don't buy points in CO for preference point drawn hunt codes. They have no monetary value because they cost zero dollars to obtain.

 

[Overdrive]

That’s easy to say if you’re not the one who has invested several thousands of dollars into the point systems only to have the rug pulled out from under your feet at the 5 yard line.

First Wyoming does it, and now Colorado.

Several of us NR hunters are sour, and rightfully so if you had as much money wrapped up in the points systems as some of us have over 10+ years.

Of course I’m looking out for myself first. Do you think I invested thousand last of dollars into a points system to support decreasing my chances to draw a tag?

I waited my turn in line, paid the fees, played by the rules, and then I am punished for it by getting moved back in line. Then when I get closer, the rules change again. So, ya, it really is about me, and many other NR’s just like me.

Curious did you ever hunt elk in Colorado while you were building these points over 10+ years?

 

[Slugz]

I never weigh in on these threads as I think 75% of the comments are generated from perception and misinformation.

1) Go to all the CPW meetings, provide comment, read every brief line for line, re read the brief again. Get involved daily in a productive way. I believe once you do that you see just how complicated things are, will see things from both sides of the fence and be able to provide valuable tangible solutions.

2) I have no issues with what CO/WY have been doing recently. I hunt both states. The more I study the tag systems, learn more, scout more.....the more opportunity I create for my self. I don't understand how that's possible sometimes. In the end, I come to the conclusion its because people don't want to put in the work, foster relationships and conduct themselves like reasonable members of society.

3) OTC season in Colorado is overcrowded. That's been a target for the CPW to find a solution. R/NR via their input has put this high on the list.

4)The ability to hunt and build points should go away. This is the main driving factor in the point creep equation. That's the next target. Regardless of residency status.

5) For the guys waving the "budget flag" there is always another way to skin the cat. People in big business know this. Don't think for one second CO/WY cant generate the budgets needed in another way.
Hunters ( small game, big game, waterfowl) are a very small part of the "land use" equation. ( EDIT)

6) WRT the post that started this thread. What business would use years old data to make a financial decision for next year? None.

Thanks for reading

 

[Poser]

I never weigh in on these threads as I think 75% of the comments are generated from perception and misinformation.

1) Go to all the CPW meetings, provide comment, read every brief line for line, re read the brief again. Get involved daily in a productive way. I believe once you do that you see just how complicated things are, will see things from both sides of the fence and be able to provide valuable tangible solutions.

2) I have no issues with what CO/WY have been doing recently. I hunt both states. The more I study the tag systems, learn more, scout more.....the more opportunity I create for my self. I don't understand how that's possible sometimes. In the end, I come to the conclusion its because people don't want to put in the work, foster relationships and conduct themselves like reasonable members of society.

3) OTC season in Colorado is overcrowded. That's been a target for the CPW to find a solution. R/NR via their input has put this high on the list.

4)The ability to hunt and build points should go away. This is the main driving factor in the point creep equation. That's the next target. Regardless of residency status.

5) For the guys waving the "budget flag" there is always another way to skin the cat. People in big business know this. Don't think for one second CO/WY cant generate the budgets needed in another way.
Hunters ( small game, big game, waterfowl) are a very small part of the "land use" equation. CO is already starting to go in the direction to charge all for access regardless of activity ( hiking, biking, viewing, picture taking, exercise, camping, fishing, marmot shooting )

6) WRT the post that started this thread. What business would use years old data to make a financial decision for next year? None.

Thanks for reading

I don’t understand point 5. How can CO charge someone a permit to hike etc on FEDERAL lands? Obviously, they already do that for state lands, but Ntl Forrest and BLM are managed by federal agencies.

 

[Slugz]

I don’t understand point 5. How can CO charge someone a permit to hike etc on FEDERAL lands? Obviously, they already do that for state lands, but Ntl Forrest and BLM are managed by federal agencies.

Currently they ( CO) cant.

Examples though that could set precedence is the State Parks that charge an access fee as you said and the Fed land that charge access already and or require a pass ( America the Beautiful Federal Recreational Lands Pass, Colorado National Monument Park Pass)

Other interesting examples/laws across the US define some National Forest Lands with the words "consumptive use"

No permit or license is required for "non consumptive use"

 

[Poser]

Currently they ( CO) cant.

Examples though that could set precedence is the State Parks that charge an access fee as you said and the Fed land that charge access already and or require a pass ( America the Beautiful Federal Recreational Lands Pass, Colorado National Monument Park Pass)

Other interesting examples/laws across the US define some National Forest Lands with the words "consumptive use"

No permit or license is required for "non consumptive use"

But your point in the previous post suggested that CO would simply replace NR tag money by charging public lands access for recreational users. There doesn’t appear to be a way that the state would get much out of the feds charging a permit for access to Ntl Forrest or BLM lands and I don’t foresee the FS ever having the will, the means or the manpower to manage such a system.