Cliff Grays Podcast with Aaron Davidson

[SDHNTR]

What's more important, mounting a scope or learning how to read wind? Reloading, or running a ballistic program? I think there's two levels of communication going in this thread. And two camps of critism. The first level of comm will understand the logic path I laid out with those two questions. The second level should consider that there is a complete other convo happening in this thread that they are not able to process....

Regarding the critism, there is truly a class element in play. Note that I didn't suggest it was a financial element.

The other is the worship of the different skills a person may have been able to develop, building insight into some aspect of long range system setup. This manifests as a superiority complex and a personal identity dependant on that superiority. Since day one TWENTY years ago, Gunwerks and myself have threatened that identity and I've heard all of the reactions. I'm a member of the club (maybe president?) that knows, but I betrayed the club by creating a bypass for GW customers.

...That should make an entertaining Sunday morning!

I could continue to argue with you, but we are never going to see eye to eye. Let’s just say I couldn’t disagree with you more.

The endless quest to make everything about hunting easier is exactly what’s wrong with hunting today.

 

[Flyjunky]

I could continue to argue with you, but we are never going to see eye to eye. Let’s just say I couldn’t disagree with you more.

The endless quest to make everything about hunting easier is exactly what’s wrong with hunting today.

I’m sure you don’t use optics, rangefinders, mapping, etc.. You must use flintlock and animal skin clothes?

 

[BCDJR]

I’m sure you don’t use optics, rangefinders, mapping, etc.. You must use flintlock and animal skin clothes?

Cell phone? Tablet? Apply on line? Read reviews? Wear gortex?

 

[SDHNTR]

Knife in my teeth and loin cloth only.

 

[RancherJohn]

I could continue to argue with you, but we are never going to see eye to eye. Let’s just say I couldn’t disagree with you more.

The endless quest to make everything about hunting easier is exactly what’s wrong with hunting today.

I think this tangent is probably best for it's own thread, but do you feel the same way about backpacks or other hunting gear? Should a guy have to build his own boots or can he order some Crispi's? Should you have to hunt public land a certain number of times in order to 'earn' the right to hunt with an outfitter? This type of gatekeeping is ridiculous.

It's no wonder some guys with more money than time would shortcut sorting through all the BS and go to one place where they can buy a complete system. Imagine if you wanted to buy a truck, but had to go one place for the chassis, another for the body, a third for the drivetrain, and a fourth for the interior; and doing anything less got you ridiculed online.

 

[JGRaider]

I think this tangent is probably best for it's own thread, but do you feel the same way about backpacks or other hunting gear? Should a guy have to build his own boots or can he order some Crispi's? Should you have to hunt public land a certain number of times in order to 'earn' the right to hunt with an outfitter? This type of gatekeeping is ridiculous.

It's no wonder some guys with more money than time would shortcut sorting through all the BS and go to one place where they can buy a complete system. Imagine if you wanted to buy a truck, but had to go one place for the chassis, another for the body, a third for the drivetrain, and a fourth for the interior; and doing anything less got you ridiculed online.

I see it more like a guy buying a race car then entering the Indy 500, finishing in last place, and then trying to figure out what went wrong.

 

[RancherJohn]

I see it more like a guy buying a race car then entering the Indy 500, finishing in last place, and then trying to figure out what went wrong.

I watched this happen in Ultra4 racing a decade+ ago. Guys with money from outside the sport came in and paid shops like Armada to build IFS cars. Some would only race KOH, some would race the entire series. Some did well, some did not. Here we are now, and some are still in the sport at the top and others have fallen by the wayside. They brought in big $ sponsors and increased the viewership & reach of Ultra4. Would they (or the sport) be better if we made them learn IFS suspension geometry, TIG welding, chassis design, aluminum fabrication, machining, and shock tuning? The answer is no.

Again, this type of gatekeeping is ridiculous. Look at how many people on here that grew up hunting & in our sport that still have issues with rifle setup. Why wouldn't you shortcut that if your time was very valuable? It won't make you a good shooter by itself, but it will eliminate some of the variables that continue to trip up people that hunt tens of days per year.

 

[JGRaider]

I personally like to know how, why, etc something works the way it does, and know what to troubleshoot. To each their own. I guided enough (16 years) to know that there are loads of ignorant "hunters" with money that don't know whether to wind their asss or scratch their watch.

 

[RancherJohn]

I personally like to know how, why, etc something works the way it does, and know what to troubleshoot. To each their own. I guided enough (16 years) to know that there are loads of ignorant "hunters" with money that don't know whether to wind their asss or scratch their watch.

...Which is somewhat to be expected of a guide. I was/am a guide, and while I think the same way as you I don't expect every client to have that level of interest in the minutia.

I've seen more people show up with big box store rifles, a scope they had the counter guy boresight, and a drop chart based off the back of the ammo box and think they are ready to hunt. Do we then say they are too poor to hunt because they can't troubleshoot their system? No, we help them see the deficiencies in their system, and fix them. GW (and others) are shortcutting that step, offering a complete system that should take little/no troubleshooting. This is not a bad thing in and of itself. Everything after that is on the hunter (and their guide).

 

[5811]

Again, this type of gatekeeping is ridiculous. Look at how many people on here that grew up hunting & in our sport that still have issues with rifle setup. Why wouldn't you shortcut that if your time was very valuable? It won't make you a good shooter by itself, but it will eliminate some of the variables that continue to trip up people that hunt tens of days per year.

Yeah, this is spot on.

I mean, there are people who have hunted their whole lives that refuse to believe Leupold doesn't make the most dependable scope!!!

If a guy can read all the evidence and testimonials on the internet and skip learning about leupold issues the hard way, is that cheating, too?

 

[eric1115]

I personally like to know how, why, etc something works the way it does, and know what to troubleshoot. To each their own. I guided enough (16 years) to know that there are loads of ignorant "hunters" with money that don't know whether to wind their asss or scratch their watch.

I have no dog in this fight. I love the learning process and figuring stuff out for myself. I have never and almost certainly will never own a GW rifle or go on a guided hunt.

How is what a guide does materially different than what GW does? A guy wants success (on a hunt, or in putting together a reliable, accurate shooting system) without devoting all the time required to build the skills and knowledge to do so himself. How is a dude who doesn't want to spend years learning about elk sign/habitat/patterns any different than a dude that doesn't want to spend years personally figuring out what works and what doesn't with rifles, scopes, rings, reloading, and shooting solutions?

I'm not saying either or both are good or bad, just wondering if you think guides serve the same role for actual hunting as GW does for shooting systems. I have my thoughts on both, but curious to hear yours.

 

[bullmtn]

I have no dog in this fight. I love the learning process and figuring stuff out for myself. I have never and almost certainly will never own a GW rifle or go on a guided hunt.

How is what a guide does materially different than what GW does? A guy wants success (on a hunt, or in putting together a reliable, accurate shooting system) without devoting all the time required to build the skills and knowledge to do so himself. How is a dude who doesn't want to spend years learning about elk sign/habitat/patterns any different than a dude that doesn't want to spend years personally figuring out what works and what doesn't with rifles, scopes, rings, reloading, and shooting solutions?

I'm not saying either or both are good or bad, just wondering if you think guides serve the same role for actual hunting as GW does for shooting systems. I have my thoughts on both, but curious to hear yours.

A guide locks down land and increases the commercialization of hunting. GW provides high end precision rifle systems.

 

[Aaron Davidson]

I could continue to argue with you, but we are never going to see eye to eye. Let’s just say I couldn’t disagree with you more.

The endless quest to make everything about hunting easier is exactly what’s wrong with hunting today.

This may be the core of the discussion. For millenia, Man has hunted. Its atavastic. Embedded in our DNA. You lived or died on your abilities and equipment. From the first kill, Man has applied all of its intelligence to be more successful. Cliffs, clubs, spears, arrows, rifles, etc.

The drive for success is embedded deeply on some of us men that trace our lineage back to the earliest leaders that supported their families and tribes.

Just like we have participation trophies, and feelings, and absolute crazies supported by our success as a society, we also have these aberrations that bring their feelings to discussions about killing. Anything other than "how to kill most effectively" is a divergence from entire human history.

This shows up today with whiny beta males trying to all over the west to eliminate dogs, limit long range, trying to suggest that its about the "experience" and not the meat in the freezer...geez, we should start issuing hiking permits (they get the experience, we get better draw odds!).

This thread started with a healthy discussion on how to make our equipment better, and to gain confidence through others efforts, so we don't have to learn everything on our own. Duh, Gunwerks business model.

 

[SDHNTR]

This may be the core of the discussion. For millenia, Man has hunted. Its atavastic. Embedded in our DNA. You lived or died on your abilities and equipment. From the first kill, Man has applied all of its intelligence to be more successful. Cliffs, clubs, spears, arrows, rifles, etc.

The drive for success is embedded deeply on some of us men that trace our lineage back to the earliest leaders that supported their families and tribes.

Just like we have participation trophies, and feelings, and absolute crazies supported by our success as a society, we also have these aberrations that bring their feelings to discussions about killing. Anything other than "how to kill most effectively" is a divergence from entire human history.

This shows up today with whiny beta males trying to all over the west to eliminate dogs, limit long range, trying to suggest that its about the "experience" and not the meat in the freezer...geez, we should start issuing hiking permits (they get the experience, we get better draw odds!).

This thread started with a healthy discussion on how to make our equipment better, and to gain confidence through others efforts, so we don't have to learn everything on our own. Duh, Gunwerks business model.

You are only digging a deeper and deeper douche hole in my book.

I watched this happen in Ultra4 racing a decade+ ago. Guys with money from outside the sport came in and paid shops like Armada to build IFS cars. Some would only race KOH, some would race the entire series. Some did well, some did not. Here we are now, and some are still in the sport at the top and others have fallen by the wayside. They brought in big $ sponsors and increased the viewership & reach of Ultra4. Would they (or the sport) be better if we made them learn IFS suspension geometry, TIG welding, chassis design, aluminum fabrication, machining, and shock tuning? The answer is no.

Again, this type of gatekeeping is ridiculous. Look at how many people on here that grew up hunting & in our sport that still have issues with rifle setup. Why wouldn't you shortcut that if your time was very valuable? It won't make you a good shooter by itself, but it will eliminate some of the variables that continue to trip up people that hunt tens of days per year.

I have a full time job running a business that manages nearly a billion dollars. I have teenagers in competitive sports and I coach their teams. I own an offshore fishing boat, an RV, a cabin, a hunting lease, all the toys, and I hunt all over the west multiple times a year. I have zero spare time. But if I want to hunt at long range, you can damn well guarantee that I am going to be putting my time into intimately learning as much as I can about how to optimize every part of that process! The animals and the sanctity of our sport deserve it.

 

[MtnW]

Anyone who has to tell me how great they are. How they are always first in all innovations. Their way of doing things are always the best. How they have “universities” TFF to teach people how to shoot rifles. Believe shooting at big game animals beyond 600 yards is ethical. Their customers are the titans of industry and their customers fly to meet the OZ and arrive in their private jets. Yada yada yada . Aaron you are the Carnival Barker. I have done okay, pretty much can buy whatever. Hang out with hunters who are very talented tradespeople to company owners who’s companies are 10000X the size of Gunwerks. None of these people feel the need to blow their own horn like you do Aaron. You can’t teach someone class. Again, arrogance is a INSECURITY . Aaron you are a legend in your own eyes. Keep selling your KOOL-AID to your target market of uninformed rich guys.

 

[Flyjunky]

You are only digging a deeper and deeper douche hole in my book.

What’s up with the name calling?

I have a full time job running a business that manages nearly a billion dollars. I have teenagers in competitive sports and I coach their teams. I own an offshore fishing boat, an RV, a cabin, a hunting lease, all the toys, and I hunt all over the west multiple times a year. I have zero spare time. But if I want to hunt at long range, you can damn well guarantee that I am going to be putting my time into intimately learning as much as I can about how to optimize every part of that process! The animals and the sanctity of our sport

Nice flex, and you’re calling someone a douche, hilarious. Speaking of arrogant, pot meet kettle.

 

[BCDJR]

I see the same correlation with bass fishing. When I first started we only had a “flasher” at the front of the boat. We had a hand controlled electric “trolling” motor. Boats were designed with a deep v. We all used cheap fiberglass rods and monofilament. Over time companies developed products that resulted in more efficiency and effectiveness on the water. Now we have 4 sonar units on our boats that help us navigate safely and search for bait and game fish. Forward facing sonar has made purists scream and claim the sport is being ruined! Of course new adapters are cashing big checks resulting in more critics who say the young bucks haven’t had to learn the hard way! The boats are now designed to keep your fish alive and allow the driver more safety on the water. The platforms to fish from are level and stable and the trolling motor can be controlled by a hand fob. The rods are now developed for specific types of fishing and they work exceptionally well. There is a reason when you see a professional tournament the angler has 15 rods on the deck. All the lures are better constructed with better hooks and paint. We now have multiple line choices for success in the body of water you are fishing. The growth and development of these products has resulted in more competition and companies getting into this market. That has made it better for the consumer. Hunting and equipment advances are moving this in a similar direction. For every on hunter there are 3 fishermen so the market is huge and manufacturers want a share. I have over 40 rods…I don’t make my own rods…I don’t carve my baits or pour molds for plastics…I don’t assemble my reels…I pay professionals.

I get a chuckle when I see some folks demeaning guides and others who advocate shooting small calibers at big animals. Yet when I see these people driving to the southeast wanting to catch a double digit bass they call every guide they can. Ask a million questions on bait and time to come fishing. And when the guide says you need a 20lb flourocarbon or 50lb braid ( grass ) I don’t see the customer saying “ I don’t care what you say I am gonna fish with 4 lb monofilament. Most of the guides I know would tell them they are booked for the year!

GW in my opinion has a vision to innovate. I think when we all look back in 5 years we will all be amazed at the industry advancements. If you don’t innovate you will die.

 

[HuntHarder]

Amazing that some guys do not understand the value of time. Like GW is doing something so evil. Some of their slogans I could do without, but Big FD. They help expedite the process of getting a rifle capable of LR hunting. Their classes help build skills and knowledge to execute LR shots. How this infuriates someone is ludicrous.

 

[SDHNTR]

What’s up with the name calling?


Nice flex, and you’re calling someone a douche, hilarious. Speaking of arrogant, pot meet kettle.

Did you not see the “beta male” part your buddy Aaron spewed first? How is that not name calling? Aaron himself may be a great guy. It’s his choice in words and his marketing model I find douchey.

It’s no flex. I only state all that to say I simply don’t buy the lack of time argument. Like exercise, or going to church, or spending time with your kids, or anything else beneficial, when it’s important enough you make the time to learn!

 

[RyanT26]

I don’t own a Gunwerks rifle or any of their products but I’m glad that they are being innovative and continuing to push what rifle systems are capable of.
The guys on this fourm that are getting upset at Davidson for his arrogance is laughable. They are probably doing so while shooting the recently invented best stock ever, the best over the barrel suppressor, and have put a down payment for the best long distance shooting course. Sound familiar.