Cliff Grays Podcast with Aaron Davidson

[SDHNTR]

What's more important, mounting a scope or learning how to read wind? Reloading, or running a ballistic program? I think there's two levels of communication going in this thread. And two camps of critism. The first level of comm will understand the logic path I laid out with those two questions. The second level should consider that there is a complete other convo happening in this thread that they are not able to process....

Regarding the critism, there is truly a class element in play. Note that I didn't suggest it was a financial element.

The other is the worship of the different skills a person may have been able to develop, building insight into some aspect of long range system setup. This manifests as a superiority complex and a personal identity dependant on that superiority. Since day one TWENTY years ago, Gunwerks and myself have threatened that identity and I've heard all of the reactions. I'm a member of the club (maybe president?) that knows, but I betrayed the club by creating a bypass for GW customers.

...That should make an entertaining Sunday morning!

I could continue to argue with you, but we are never going to see eye to eye. Let’s just say I couldn’t disagree with you more.

The endless quest to make everything about hunting easier is exactly what’s wrong with hunting today.

 

[Flyjunky]

I could continue to argue with you, but we are never going to see eye to eye. Let’s just say I couldn’t disagree with you more.

The endless quest to make everything about hunting easier is exactly what’s wrong with hunting today.

I’m sure you don’t use optics, rangefinders, mapping, etc.. You must use flintlock and animal skin clothes?

 

[BCDJR]

I’m sure you don’t use optics, rangefinders, mapping, etc.. You must use flintlock and animal skin clothes?

Cell phone? Tablet? Apply on line? Read reviews? Wear gortex?

 

[SDHNTR]

Knife in my teeth and loin cloth only.

 

[RancherJohn]

I could continue to argue with you, but we are never going to see eye to eye. Let’s just say I couldn’t disagree with you more.

The endless quest to make everything about hunting easier is exactly what’s wrong with hunting today.

I think this tangent is probably best for it's own thread, but do you feel the same way about backpacks or other hunting gear? Should a guy have to build his own boots or can he order some Crispi's? Should you have to hunt public land a certain number of times in order to 'earn' the right to hunt with an outfitter? This type of gatekeeping is ridiculous.

It's no wonder some guys with more money than time would shortcut sorting through all the BS and go to one place where they can buy a complete system. Imagine if you wanted to buy a truck, but had to go one place for the chassis, another for the body, a third for the drivetrain, and a fourth for the interior; and doing anything less got you ridiculed online.

 

[JGRaider]

I think this tangent is probably best for it's own thread, but do you feel the same way about backpacks or other hunting gear? Should a guy have to build his own boots or can he order some Crispi's? Should you have to hunt public land a certain number of times in order to 'earn' the right to hunt with an outfitter? This type of gatekeeping is ridiculous.

It's no wonder some guys with more money than time would shortcut sorting through all the BS and go to one place where they can buy a complete system. Imagine if you wanted to buy a truck, but had to go one place for the chassis, another for the body, a third for the drivetrain, and a fourth for the interior; and doing anything less got you ridiculed online.

I see it more like a guy buying a race car then entering the Indy 500, finishing in last place, and then trying to figure out what went wrong.

 

[RancherJohn]

I see it more like a guy buying a race car then entering the Indy 500, finishing in last place, and then trying to figure out what went wrong.

I watched this happen in Ultra4 racing a decade+ ago. Guys with money from outside the sport came in and paid shops like Armada to build IFS cars. Some would only race KOH, some would race the entire series. Some did well, some did not. Here we are now, and some are still in the sport at the top and others have fallen by the wayside. They brought in big $ sponsors and increased the viewership & reach of Ultra4. Would they (or the sport) be better if we made them learn IFS suspension geometry, TIG welding, chassis design, aluminum fabrication, machining, and shock tuning? The answer is no.

Again, this type of gatekeeping is ridiculous. Look at how many people on here that grew up hunting & in our sport that still have issues with rifle setup. Why wouldn't you shortcut that if your time was very valuable? It won't make you a good shooter by itself, but it will eliminate some of the variables that continue to trip up people that hunt tens of days per year.

 

[JGRaider]

I personally like to know how, why, etc something works the way it does, and know what to troubleshoot. To each their own. I guided enough (16 years) to know that there are loads of ignorant "hunters" with money that don't know whether to wind their asss or scratch their watch.

 

[RancherJohn]

I personally like to know how, why, etc something works the way it does, and know what to troubleshoot. To each their own. I guided enough (16 years) to know that there are loads of ignorant "hunters" with money that don't know whether to wind their asss or scratch their watch.

...Which is somewhat to be expected of a guide. I was/am a guide, and while I think the same way as you I don't expect every client to have that level of interest in the minutia.

I've seen more people show up with big box store rifles, a scope they had the counter guy boresight, and a drop chart based off the back of the ammo box and think they are ready to hunt. Do we then say they are too poor to hunt because they can't troubleshoot their system? No, we help them see the deficiencies in their system, and fix them. GW (and others) are shortcutting that step, offering a complete system that should take little/no troubleshooting. This is not a bad thing in and of itself. Everything after that is on the hunter (and their guide).

 

[5811]

Again, this type of gatekeeping is ridiculous. Look at how many people on here that grew up hunting & in our sport that still have issues with rifle setup. Why wouldn't you shortcut that if your time was very valuable? It won't make you a good shooter by itself, but it will eliminate some of the variables that continue to trip up people that hunt tens of days per year.

Yeah, this is spot on.

I mean, there are people who have hunted their whole lives that refuse to believe Leupold doesn't make the most dependable scope!!!

If a guy can read all the evidence and testimonials on the internet and skip learning about leupold issues the hard way, is that cheating, too?