BLM on two corners with Private on the other two, ok to cross corner?

[BuzzH]

I’ll be sure to tell them Internet forum experts have told me to corner crossing is legal and the game warden and deputy sheriff were wrong…

There is plenty for me to “Dive into” as IF it’s legal, a WY Game and Fish Officer cannot threaten me with a Citation.

Did you read the GF memo or the AG opinion? Those the "internet forum experts" you're referencing?

There is no statute for a warden to cite for corner crossing...pretty simple.

I believe you just like to argue...you've been led to water.

 

[cnelk]

How did a question about corner crossing in Colorado become a topic for Wyoming?

 

[BuzzH]

How did a question about corner crossing in Colorado become a topic for Wyoming?

When someone claimed to be threatened by a Wyoming game warden they would be cited for trespassing to hunt crossing a corner.

Which, if true (doubtful), the warden needs to be corrected on.

 

[WCB]

The picture of where your camera was would have helped a ton at the start of the thread... But I have also learned from many guys on here that all public lad should have a No Hunting zone around the edges because landowners might get butt hurt. Sorry landowners I will hunt right to the very last inch of public just the same way landowners put permanent stands right on the border of public and private "claiming" that spot.

FYI, I am a landowner also who hunts public land...I've been on both sides of the fence.

 

[wind gypsy]

I dealt with this issue in WY just this year. Buzz is absolutely correct. I watched a guy "corner cross" 3 to 4 times on our property and miss an elk standing on private land. He never crossed at the correct corner - he went through private each time. He then shortcut through private 2 miles back to his truck. The warden would not write him a ticket. It was only my word against the poachers'. He offered to call the sheriff to come and cite a criminal trespass but would still be my word against his. The guy had no gps track, only marked pins - I told the warden "of course". Apparently there was a guy that shot an elk on checkerboard land in western WY just this year, with the anticipation to create lawsuits for the fish and game if he was cited and this has all the wardens on their heels. It's really a bad deal currently.
I get that landowners usually get the bad rap for this but imagine having bedded a 300" bull on private land only to have a public land hunter shoot at him directly underneath you and claim the bull was standing on the next ridge over when he shot. And your hunting buddy is hiking 2 miles to get to you to shoot the bull only to find a poacher standing there instead.

I don't see how this issue would be any different if there were just a public/private boundary with no corners involved.

 

[wind gypsy]

The way ranches are listed and bought/sold in the west with public land acreage "included in the purchase" certainly drives some of these conflicts. It's backasswards. People buy land with the intention of benefiting from having a monopoly of cheap public land when in reality recreational land bordering public should be less desirable due to the conflicts with the portion of shitty people likely to cause conflict from the public side.

 

[Bighorner]

I don't see how this issue would be any different if there were just a public/private boundary with no corners involved.

Because that issue is very clear cut and no one iss arguing about. The corner issue is very gray and filled with alot of intent, variables, and somewhat vague enforcement.

 

[Bighorner]

How dare all those sh!@# people out there enjoy the public land they have every right to. The nerve!

 

[Larry Bartlett]

In Alaska where BLM exists behind or beyond private property, access corridors (right of ways) are almost always available. You'd have to confer with the BLM for that area but could be helpful.

However, an unspoken legal requirement that BLM follows is to contact the land owners affected by your query to inform them of your intent. This has caused me some issues with Native corps in the past, so today I rarely seek permission from BLM for anything non-commercial (i.e., personal access with no commercial element).

Your local DNR should have coordinates of Right of Ways too.

Tricky stuff.

 

[Zeke6951]

I have read all the post on this thread with interest. I don't believe it was on here but on another thread, maybe on Bowsite that said the SCOTUS had ruled (or refused to rule) that recreational access did not rise to the level of important public interest to force access across private land. My wording may be a off but that is the gist of the matter.

 

[Coveyleader]

Getting back to the GPS accuracy, I calc'd a quick diagram as seen below. If you have the proper coordinates of the section corner, and you can center yourself as the red reference line shows, and then walked in, you can see the arc distance you're dealing with on each side before you could potentially find yourself in the white (private).

At 20 feet out, on line, you have 16' of allowable error per side. The distance will change if you are not on line, and or the section corner was not entered correctly. That's asking a lot for a non-corrected GPS signal these days. Also keep in mind most guys are going to use their finger to touch and hold, and create a waypoint on what they think is the corner.

Something many of us can relate to, ice fishing holes. You cut a couple holes with no real snow on the ice. You smash the fish while everyone around you isn't catching anything. You drill a couple holes along side of it, still nothing. You mark the holes with your phone and the next time you come out, there is a foot of snow on the ice and your GPS is leading you to "that place". We've all been there, we're close, but we're still kicking snow away to find "That hole" All of the sudden your GPS jumps 20 feet, and you move, bingo, hole found fish on the ice. The hole is the section corner in this case.

 

[Bighorner]

Getting back to the GPS accuracy, I calc'd a quick diagram as seen below. If you have the proper coordinates of the section corner, and you can center yourself as the red reference line shows, and then walked in, you can see the arc distance you're dealing with on each side before you could potentially find yourself in the white (private).

At 20 feet out, on line, you have 16' of allowable error per side. The distance will change if you are not on line, and or the section corner was not entered correctly. That's asking a lot for a non-corrected GPS signal these days. Also keep in mind most guys are going to use their finger to touch and hold, and create a waypoint on what they think is the corner.

Something many of us can relate to, ice fishing holes. You cut a couple holes with no real snow on the ice. You smash the fish while everyone around you isn't catching anything. You drill a couple holes along side of it, still nothing. You mark the holes with your phone and the next time you come out, there is a foot of snow on the ice and your GPS is leading you to "that place". We've all been there, we're close, but we're still kicking snow away to find "That hole" All of the sudden your GPS jumps 20 feet, and you move, bingo, hole found fish on the ice. The hole is the section corner in this case.

View attachment 340281

That is useful information for sure. If a section corner or quarter corner has been set and projecting up out of the ground it very well may be visible from further away sometimes hundreds of feet. I'm in no way a lawyer, but it seems the intent to find that corner provides some leeway. If I, in good faith, am looking for the corner, i have no problem doing so to the best of tools capabilities.

 

[Vaultman]

@Coveyleader ... are you a land surveyor?
You seem to have knowledge on these things that a surveyor has (or someone that has worked with/around one).

 

[Billy Goat]

Was that the original mission tho?

That was more my question.

 

[Coveyleader]

@Coveyleader ... are you a land surveyor?
You seem to have knowledge on these things that a surveyor has (or someone that has worked with/around one).

Lets just say I've been around the surveying industry since the 90's and all things related to it.

 

[Bighorner]

Lets just say I've been around the surveying industry since the 90's and all things related to it.

What would your opinion be on a surveyor occupying a property corner with out the consent of the ajoiner be? I mean this in all due respect for yourself and your profesion.

 

[BuzzH]

Not my experience that GPS's are off 20 feet...not even close to that.

I relocate pins that we placed in the ground 20 years ago at work 60-80 times a year with a handheld GPS and differentially corrected coordinates that often times were marked the first time using a different coordinate system. The locations have been converted to a different coordinate system and that's what we use now. Its a rare bird that I cant walk within 5-6 feet of that pin, most of the time even closer, and I find 99% of the pins.

Point being, handheld GPS units are way more accurate than they're being given credit for, and that's just a simple fact.

All that said, if a landowner is using the exact same technology and there is no surveyed pin, then which GPS is the most correct? Further how do they prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that their GPS is more correct than yours? Even more important what "proof" could they actually provide that you trespassed? Photo, video? Even if they had that "proof" is it conclusive?

As to the actual corner pins, again its a rare bird when you can't see a surveyed corner from wayyyyy more than 20 feet away.

Also, in Wyoming for a warden to issue a citation for trespassing to hunt, as pointed out by the AG opinion, there has to be INTENT to hunt the private.

Trying to locate a corner pin with the best available technology to cross at that corner is clearly proving the hunter has NO INTENTION of hunting on private, just the opposite.

All this crap about GPS accuracy, air space, surveyed corners, no pins, blah blah, means jack nothing for trespassing to hunt in Wyoming. Meaningless BS...best case, and precisely why Wardens in WY will not cite for trespass to hunt for corner crossing. Its really that simple.

Also, there is nothing in the Title 6 statutes that a Sheriff would write for criminal trespass that states anything about airspace being enough to write the title 6 ticket for either.

 

[BuzzH]

What would your opinion be on a surveyor occupying a property corner with out the consent of the ajoiner be? I mean this in all due respect for yourself and your profesion.

According to some, probably jail time and a fine.

Reality, nothing.

 

[Coveyleader]

What would your opinion be on a surveyor occupying a property corner with out the consent of the ajoiner be? I mean this in all due respect for yourself and your profesion.

Normally you present the landowners with a date and time and the work to be done to try and get access to said property. In the surveying world that I've been part of, we just requested access to each cap that needed to be recovered with the best access. Access normally isn't an issue when you explain your scope of work.

One thing I didn't mention above, and should have, is the fact that not all states provide a list of corners/per county in a usable format that is supported by navigation systems. GPS works on datums and projections. Get one of those mixed up, and my section corner example above could get ugly quick.

A quick look at my ONx program shows options for UTM and DMS. I understand the simplicity, after all we're hunters, but depending on the underlying datum (think flavor) there are huge differences depending on said datums being used. I assume with ONX, UTM and DMS is based on the WGS 84 system but as a person who handles coordinate systems on a daily basis, the option "UTM or DMS" is a very open ended question. So open it could cost you 100's of feet in the field, especially as you get West and East of Kansas if you don't understand what you're uploading or keying in.


For you ambitious types, who want to test the waters, go to http://www.cp-db.com/index.html where you can download a KMZ file for quite a few counties in CO to get you started. Load them up in your ONX, and corner hop away!

 

[Vaultman]

What would your opinion be on a surveyor occupying a property corner with out the consent of the ajoiner be? I mean this in all due respect for yourself and your profesion.

According to some, probably jail time and a fine.

Reality, nothing.

I do not know about CO or WY, but in OR it would be a fine, and potential loss of their professional licensure.
In Oregon, for a land surveyor performing their work, it is not about consent, it is about notice.