30-06 limitations or does it not have the “cool factor”

[moxford]

Where are the 600+ yard shooters finding the space and concurrently able to see if there is another hunter in the space between them and the animal. Are most of those shots across wide open space like plains or is there a valley between them and the animal? Asking seriously.

Out west there are quite a lot of places to get away from everyone and shoot that far out, easily.

On another topic, and what I tell everyone: if you need your first rifle, 308/06/270/300WM are not likely where you want to go. There ARE more efficient cartridges around, and there is, really, no reason to use them. Do they work? Hell yes. Easily. But why spend money on "old tech" unless it has a) sentimental value, b) you just really like the history of it, or c) you just want one, and don't care about peak performance.

It is exactly like older classic cars. They are cool, they work, tons of panache, good styling, and they can be hotrodded ... but it is hard to compete with current automotive tech. They'll work, but your carbs+points HP/MPG won't give you the same out-of-the-box performance as most newer cars.

If you already have one of the above, the "need" to upgrade is about zero, outside of a few narrow windows of use. But I don't advise buying one at this stage because you can do (marginally) better in other realms.

That said, I do still want a 280AI even though I "could do better."

Cheers,
-mox

 

[35WhelenAI]

Thanks moxford, appreciate the response without an attitude that is 500+ feet deep.

Cartridge efficiency has taken on a different look. Used to be thought of in terms of bullet energy per grain of powder. The newer cartridges are kings of efficiency of fps per grain of powder. Combined with fast twist barrels, ability to make a clean kill at long range with high BC bullets is retained.

That's making it a thinking man's game all over again. With more built into the equation than just raw bullet weight and speed, and designing around what kills (retained velocity ensuring expansion at impact) vs a marketing number of ft/lbs where more was always considered better.

 

[wind gypsy]

30-06 is a capable cartridge for most anything. There are just options with less recoil, have less case stretch, buck the wind better, and can do it from a short or medium action. Any advantages it gives up are magnitudes less important than shooter ability/knowledge. If one is making a choice on a new gun, it's not hard to choose something with upsides not possessed by the 06.

 

[wind gypsy]

I totally agree with this. I didn’t know what I didn’t know when I built my 3006. At the end of the day it’s a 6mph gun in my home environment, and carries 2000 fps at my intended max range. I also am shooting 180 and 185 bergers out of it which brings it in line. My 26” 6.5 creedmoor has the same wind number back home. Shooting all of them leaves me to believe it’s really all bullshit numbers unless you get out and practice.

More recoil. Little more wind, and more lead at the target is what my 3006 does compared to what I would consider chambering a rifle in today. My barrel might last 2-3times longer than the prc though.

Iv gone full circle and am building 6 and 22 creedmoors now adays to take advantage of the easier shooting rifle. I don’t even want to burn prc powder.

Well on the bright side your defiance long action is appreciating in value nicely if you want to offload it to help fund the new 22 and 6mm barrels..

 

[Lawnboi]

Well on the bright side your defiance long action is appreciating in value nicely if you want to offload it to help fund the new 22 and 6mm barrels..

Instead of that I’m thinking about buying a magnum bolt to future proof it.

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Tock-O, you are correct about more efficient cartridge design. Mass produced "Short, fat" cases started with the 300 WSM in 2001, 6.5 Creedmoor in 2007.

If any of you folks paid attention 25-30 years ago (probably a good number not even a twinkle at that point), Rick Jamison from Shooting Times developed (and patented, most important part) a line of cartridges that Winchester knocked off in creating the WSM line. Out of court they settled for a percent or set amount for each WSM rifle sold (by Winchester for sure, possibly others who chamber the cartridges) from what I recall.

SDHNTR, you have hit a key point. Fast twist barrels. I wonder how many guys understand that's what makes the newer lines of smaller cased cartridges what they are. Not magic pixie dust sprinkled on every chamber that's reamed or round that's chambered.

If traditional cartridges started coming with fast twist barrels either standard or as an option, I can see the amount of butt hurt that'll happen around here being able to push long streamlined bullets even faster and carry velocity to an even greater range from a century old cartridge than Mr. new and shiny .

Here's hoping that the new Hornady 134 grain ELDM coming out this year will breathe new life into the .25s and manuracturers start selling .25-06 with 1:7 or 1:8 barrels like the latest Tikka .243.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Comparing a factory load 30-06 with a federal bullet vs a ELDm is not even close to a comparison. Run the numbers on a 190gr accubond long range at 2750fps


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The original guy made a blanket statement that the 30-06 and 6.5 PRC are peers when it comes to long range shooting. A blanket statement tends to cover everything including all possible combinations of the sub-components. I provided three specific examples using my rifles to counter his blanket statement. Unsurprisingly a member ignores the blanket statement and gets their undergarments knotted up when someone provides data to refute the blanket statement.

I understand that it is easier to bitch and do nothing rather than expend some effort to get your own answers. This one time I will enable your laziness and run the numbers using your requested ammo of commercial 190 gr ABLR (Winchester - 2750 fps) and the commercial 147 gr ELD-M (Hornady - 2910 fps); wind is 10 mph @ 90*.

Assumptions: same shot placement on target animal, same shooter, raw numbers only, excludes ethical considerations, 1800 fps is threshold for reliable expansion, hunting (not target shooting), etc.

For short to mid-range, the numbers are fairly close on this comparison; the 30-06 can provide more opportunities for missed and/or wounded game. However, once you start to transition to longer distances, the spread between the two increases. This will lead to the 30-06 providing even more opportunities for missed and/or wounded game. Past 750 yards, the 30-06 is no longer effective while the 6.5 PRC will hit that number around 925 yards.

Here is a table:


I am happy with my 30-06 and it does very well for its intended purposes. But my 30-06 will never come along on a hunt where long distance shots are likely.

I'll leave it to the individual to decide if the "praised" 30-06 is truly a peer to the "mediocre" 6.5 PRC when it comes to long range hunting.

 

[AkRyan]

Seems to me if you can't get it done in 600 yards or even 400 yards which is nearing 1/4 mile, a hunter is deliberately trying to shoot an animal versus hunt it.

The hunter creates limitations both mentally and physically with respect to the preparation or method they choose, the rifle (in this case the great '06) is always capable of doing what it can.

Speaking of the '06 as a military cartridge is absolutely true however there's not a new modern manufactured '06 with modern reloading components that can't get it done in the same situations as many more modern rounds that folks believe they cannot be successful without.

It is in my opinion splitting hairs combined with less time in the field gaining experience hunting (insert elk, deer, pronghorn, et al) for many folks that the modern era has lead them to believe to a large extent the best/only way to get an animal is on the far side of 400 yds.

I've been saying this for years. Hunters kill animals at hunting distance (sub 400) and range heros shoot animals at 800 because the internet says they can. It's about ethics not ability!
I hunt with a 19in 300wsm that pretty much mimics a 30-06 balistics with 180g. That rifle will kill anything in Alaska with a single well placed shot under 400yrds 365 days a year.

 

[AkRyan]

The original guy made a blanket statement that the 30-06 and 6.5 PRC are peers when it comes to long range shooting. A blanket statement tends to cover everything including all possible combinations of the sub-components. I provided three specific examples using my rifles to counter his blanket statement. Unsurprisingly a member ignores the blanket statement and gets their undergarments knotted up when someone provides data to refute the blanket statement.

I understand that it is easier to bitch and do nothing rather than expend some effort to get your own answers. This one time I will enable your laziness and run the numbers using your requested ammo of commercial 190 gr ABLR (Winchester - 2750 fps) and the commercial 147 gr ELD-M (Hornady - 2910 fps); wind is 10 mph @ 90*.

Assumptions: same shot placement on target animal, same shooter, raw numbers only, excludes ethical considerations, 1800 fps is threshold for reliable expansion, hunting (not target shooting), etc.

For short to mid-range, the numbers are fairly close on this comparison; the 30-06 can provide more opportunities for missed and/or wounded game. However, once you start to transition to longer distances, the spread between the two increases. This will lead to the 30-06 providing even more opportunities for missed and/or wounded game. Past 750 yards, the 30-06 is no longer effective while the 6.5 PRC will hit that number around 925 yards.

Here is a table:
View attachment 502650

I am happy with my 30-06 and it does very well for its intended purposes. But my 30-06 will never come along on a hunt where long distance shots are likely.

I'll leave it to the individual to decide if the "praised" 30-06 is truly a peer to the "mediocre" 6.5 PRC when it comes to long range hunting.

What happens when you do this with a standard 180g eldm? Better yet what happens when you use a eldx on the prc?

 

[jjohnsonElknewbie]

Since we're looking at tables...

.25-06 shooting a 135 grain Berger over 60 grains of VV N570 at a hair under 3100.

Input Parameters
Bullet Diameter	0.257 inches	Zero Range	200 yards
Bullet Weight	135 grains	Sight Height	1.50 in
Ballistic Coefficient	0.650	Muzzle Velocity	3095 fps
Temperature	59 F	Wind Speed	10.00 mph
Altitude	1500 feet	Wind Direction	9 o'clock
Inclination	0 degrees	Berger Bullets	Copyright 2013

Range Card
Range	Velocity (fps)	Energy (ft-lbs)	Elevation (inches)	Windage (inches)	TOF (s)
100​	2950​	2610​	1.25​	0.46​	0.10​
200​	2811​	2369​	-0.00​	1.77​	0.20​
300​	2676​	2147​	-5.64​	4.01​	0.31​
400​	2545​	1942​	-16.14​	7.23​	0.43​
500​	2418​	1753​	-32.00​	11.50​	0.55​
600​	2295​	1579​	-53.81​	16.90​	0.67​
700​	2175​	1418​	-82.22​	23.52​	0.81​
800​	2059​	1271​	-117.97​	31.47​	0.95​
900​	1946​	1136​	-161.93​	40.84​	1.10​

 

[Elite]

The original guy made a blanket statement that the 30-06 and 6.5 PRC are peers when it comes to long range shooting. A blanket statement tends to cover everything including all possible combinations of the sub-components. I provided three specific examples using my rifles to counter his blanket statement. Unsurprisingly a member ignores the blanket statement and gets their undergarments knotted up when someone provides data to refute the blanket statement.

I understand that it is easier to bitch and do nothing rather than expend some effort to get your own answers. This one time I will enable your laziness and run the numbers using your requested ammo of commercial 190 gr ABLR (Winchester - 2750 fps) and the commercial 147 gr ELD-M (Hornady - 2910 fps); wind is 10 mph @ 90*.

Assumptions: same shot placement on target animal, same shooter, raw numbers only, excludes ethical considerations, 1800 fps is threshold for reliable expansion, hunting (not target shooting), etc.

For short to mid-range, the numbers are fairly close on this comparison; the 30-06 can provide more opportunities for missed and/or wounded game. However, once you start to transition to longer distances, the spread between the two increases. This will lead to the 30-06 providing even more opportunities for missed and/or wounded game. Past 750 yards, the 30-06 is no longer effective while the 6.5 PRC will hit that number around 925 yards.

Here is a table:
View attachment 502650

I am happy with my 30-06 and it does very well for its intended purposes. But my 30-06 will never come along on a hunt where long distance shots are likely.

I'll leave it to the individual to decide if the "praised" 30-06 is truly a peer to the "mediocre" 6.5 PRC when it comes to long range hunting.

Do you have the energy table available for your comparison?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[35WhelenAI]

Do you have the energy table available for your comparison?


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Energy is not the metric it once was. Meaning, energy was a way to sell rifles when folks did not understand that reliable expansion at impact velocity was the key to a dead animal.

It's a pretty safe bet fairly run of the mill calibers from quarter bore up to medium bore will get the job done when the bullet has velocity to expand and can reach the vitals from the chosen shot angle.

When the 30-06 was the standard by which hunting guns were judged, a 300 Win Mag throwing the same bullets 200-300 fps faster raised energy numbers to where hunters reached for their money in droves. What they got were bullet blow ups at closer range but as range increased the 300 Win Mag was a pretty good and consistent killer beyond what the '06 could do with the bullets of the time. The reason being impact velocity was higher at longer ranges, but not beyond structural limitations of bullets of the time.

When energy is brought into the equation in this type of discussion, it really isn't the player it once was (was always a mis-placed focus), because we have come to a better understanding as a hunting community as to what gets the job done vs what looks good on paper, per se. 2500 ft/lbs of energy in a bullet that can't expand or expands marginally is nothing compared to 1800 ft/lbs that does expand and reaches the vitals to destroy them.

Longer, sleeker, "pencil thin" bullets carry that velocity very well, and when they get there, expansion and sectional density allows them to drive themselves home to the vitals with what "little" they have.

 

[Treerat-sniper]

I have been '06-less for several years, recently did some soul searching & ended up with this for future western elk/black bear hunts:

 

[fivebikies]

One thing the 30-06 has going for it is the 30-06 and cartridges of similar dimensions feed really well compared to chunkier stubbier cartridges.
When you need a second shot it just works.

 

[6mm Remington]

I have been '06-less for several years, recently did some soul searching & ended up with this for future western elk/black bear hunts:
View attachment 519282

Nice! Try some 165 gr. Accubonds in it and I imagine your rifle will shoot them well.

 

[Elite]

I have been reloading 190 ABLR with h4350 at 2710fps. Should perform well

 

[LoggerDan]

I always relied upon 4864

 

[Lou270]

The biggest sin on a 30-06 is it had been around for nearly 120 years and not much new to write about. It performs better than ever with modern bullets/powders. All cartridges have their pros/cons/niches but the 06 pretty much remains king if you want a one and done without big recoil

Lou

 

[35WhelenAI]

I always relied upon 4864

IMR 4064, just the 4864 version, lol?

 

[LoggerDan]

Thanks for catching that! My mistake! I sure feel silly now.