.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Turkeytider]

About all I`ll say is that if the level of interest as demonstrated by participation in this thread is indicative of a controversial nature regarding this subject....Wow!!

 

[ElPollo]

I rest my case.

My response is not intended to be personal, but I find your argument to be lacking merit. There are over 7400 posts on this thread and hundreds of game animals of multiple species documented here. With the number of people who post about being butt-hurt about someone else choosing to use a 22 centerfire with a TMK or ELDM/X on big game, what do you think the probability is of there being a raft of people who use the combo, experience a failure, but fail to report it? Ever hear of Occam’s Razor? This is the internet, man. If there is drama we would be hearing about it. Instead we get people over and over stating their opinion that using 22 centerfires on anything bigger than a hamster is a bad idea without any data. At what point does one recognize this confirmation bias thing as a conspiracy theory and move on? If you really feel that strongly about this whole thing, why not try using the combo on game within the limitations presented and report you own findings? Based on the data presented, if you put the bullet in the vitals any critter listed in the thread title (except Chupacabras) will die quickly and the only negative comment posted is that the bullet may not exit. I will be using a 223 and TMKs this fall and will report what happens from my own perspective. Feel free to do the same.

 

[atmat]

I rest my case.

I don’t think this is a super helpful response. @Marbles asked you for your opinion on the negatives of TMK based on your experience — and you’ve got a ton of experience culling deer with 22 caliber bullets. You could’ve just chosen to share your experience.

 

[BjornF16]

My response is not intended to be personal, but I find your argument to be lacking merit. There are over 7400 posts on this thread and hundreds of game animals of multiple species documented here. With the number of people who post about being butt-hurt about someone else choosing to use a 22 centerfire with a TMK or ELDM/X on big game, what do you think the probability is of there being a raft of people who use the combo, experience a failure, but fail to report it? Ever hear of Occam’s Razor? This is the internet, man. If there is drama we would be hearing about it. Instead we get people over and over stating their opinion that using 22 centerfires on anything bigger than a hamster is a bad idea without any data. At what point does one recognize this confirmation bias thing as a conspiracy theory and move on? If you really feel that strongly about this whole thing, why not try using the combo on game within the limitations presented and report you own findings? Based on the data presented, if you put the bullet in the vitals any critter listed in the thread title (except Chupacabras) will die quickly and the only negative comment posted is that the bullet may not exit. I will be using a 223 and TMKs this fall and will report what happens from my own perspective. Feel free to do the same.

I think there is a bit of mis-communication here...

@Tahr is not denying the viability of .223 at all, in fact he has posted quite a few results on game using a .223 with a different bullet than the TMK. His point appears to be that there are other bullets in the .223 caliber that are very effective.

I think it would be useful for the 77grn TMK mist to be cleared from some people's eyes. As much as this thread illustrates they work very well it also shows that there is a cluster of other projectiles that are also very effective. We shouldn't be blinded to that. They don't need to be listed 'cos as the fans say, "read the thread".
I wouldn't cry myself to sleep if the only projectile I could use on deer in my .223 was a Gameking. The weight wouldn't concern me much.

 

[ElPollo]

I think there is a bit of mis-communication here...

@Tahr is not denying the viability of .223 at all, in fact he has posted quite a few results on game using a .223 with a different bullet than the TMK. His point appears to be that there are other bullets in the .223 caliber that are very effective.

@Tahr
Apologize if I misunderstood your post.

 

[wind gypsy]

At what distance does this 77gr .223 load drop below 1400 ft pounds of energy? That would be my limit.

Mackey

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

77 grain TMK killers... I plan to kill a pile of big game animals this year with these bullets.

I think I’ve read in here and other threads that somewhere around 1,800 FPS for velocity is the “minimum”. Can anyone who’s killed with these regularity and reliably, comment on if I am reading that incorrectly?

I want to have a solid big game yardage “cutoff”. Nothing to crazy detailed because obviously there are other factors involved, but a good starting point baseline is what I’m after here.

 

[omicron1792]

77 grain TMK killers... I plan to kill a pile of big game animals this year with these bullets.

I think I’ve read in here and other threads that somewhere around 1,800 FPS for velocity is the “minimum”. Can anyone who’s killed with these regularity and reliably, comment on if I am reading that incorrectly?

I want to have a solid big game yardage “cutoff”. Nothing to crazy detailed because obviously there are other factors involved, but a good starting point baseline is what I’m after here.

I’ve used on 2 coyotes with good success, so no expert, but I thought I read where @Formidilosus has said they will disrupt down to about 1400

 

[Billogna]

77 grain TMK killers... I plan to kill a pile of big game animals this year with these bullets.

I think I’ve read in here and other threads that somewhere around 1,800 FPS for velocity is the “minimum”. Can anyone who’s killed with these regularity and reliably, comment on if I am reading that incorrectly?

I want to have a solid big game yardage “cutoff”. Nothing to crazy detailed because obviously there are other factors involved, but a good starting point baseline is what I’m after here.

1800fps minimum for reliable upset and fragmentation. For most 223 rem's that puts max effective range around 400-450 yds depending on muzzle velo.

 

[Marbles]

I rest my case.

Well, I rest my case that you have no case. What, that is a completely worthless jib that serves no purpose, I take it back.

If your case is that someone else does not make the case for you and asks to have it shown, well my conclusion is that you have no case worth discussion.

Everything can succeed and everything can fail. One failure, or a few successes make for a very weak case. Hell, Bella Twin took a world record grizzly with a 22 (probably a 22 short, but perhaps a 22 long rifle) and Gene Moe Killed a costal brown with a knife.

If limited data is all the data we have, then we have no choice but to use it. However, there is a whole lot of success data buried in the thread with a few people who don't like certain aspects (no exit, poor blood trails, Etc.). If you want to have a case, for your accusation of intellectual laziness, which you have now specifically leveled against me by the way, stop being intellectually lazy yourself and make a case. That case, to be worth considering, must show that the 223/TMK fails more than a commonly accepted alternative (say a 7 mag loaded with Accubonds).

For the record, it was my own attempt to actually make a case against the 223/TMK that lead to me accepting it, because I failed to find the data I expected that showed it not to work.

 

[Thegman]

Never fear, the 77TMK is here...


I got this bear last night. Only squares around 7' so not a big boar, but plenty big to ruin your day if he so decided.

I wasn't interested in a broadside lung shot...boring...I have zero doubt a 77TMK makes it through the lungs/heart in that situation and kills the bear. I really wanted to test the "but what about hunting with a 223 around grizzlies/brown bears?" question that continues to come up here and there. So, yes, let's see what happens with a non-preferred shot, at least in an example of one.

I really was hoping for a full frontal chest shot but he didn't turn quite enough so I hit the point of the shoulder on a hard quartering to at about this angle, below.


Bear spun and ran about 80 yards and piled up. Interestingly, he ran to and died on the same spot another bear did last year, shot by someone else with a 338 WM, broadside, double lunged in that case. They called me to bring my dog because they couldn't find blood. I didn’t either with the 77TMK and didn't expect to with my shot choice, but wasn't concerned about that with my hunting partner. Got to give her props!!


I'll post the autopsy pics in the next post...

 

[mddat]

Well done! What distance was the bear shot at?

 

[omicron1792]

Never fear, the 77TMK is here...
View attachment 718589

I got this bear last night. Only squares around 7' so not a big boar, but plenty big to ruin your day if he so decided.

I wasn't interested in a broadside lung shot...boring...I have zero doubt a 77TMK makes it through the lungs/heart in that situation and kills the bear. I really wanted to test the "but what about hunting with a 223 around grizzlies/brown bears?" question that continues to come up here and there. So, yes, let's see what happens with a non-preferred shot, at least in an example of one.

I really was hoping for a full frontal chest shot but he didn't turn quite enough so I hit the point of the shoulder on a hard quartering to at about this angle, below.
View attachment 718591

Bear spun and ran about 80 yards and piled up. Interestingly, he ran to and died on the same spot another bear did last year, shot by someone else with a 338 WM, broadside, double lunged in that case. They called me to bring my dog because they couldn't find blood. I didn’t either with the 77TMK and didn't expect to with my shot choice, but wasn't concerned about that with my hunting partner. Got to give her props!!
View attachment 718595

I'll post the autopsy pics in the next post...

Legend

 

[Thegman]

As usual, it was late, I was by myself (with respect to people anyway), and knew there was at least one other grizzly, probably not far, wandering in the alders. So I didn't take ton of time, but with Wonder Dog on watch duty, I managed a few pics.

Here's the entrance in the shoulder. I was hoping to hit the point of the humerus to further test the "but what if you hit a big bone?" question, but missed it by an inch or so. No major bones seemed broken, but a big hole through the shoulder at an angle.


The bullet passed through diagonally and stopped somewhere around the ribs on the far side, ahead of the liver. I'd didn't find any bullet, but like I said, I wasn't taking my sweet time with the process.
This is the bloodshot surface on the ribs on the other side (or maybe the same side? Working fast and not paying enough attention to which pic is which.)


This was interesting to me: It didn't look like I hit lungs or heart, but still killed pretty danm fast. There was just blood soup, but from my quick inspection, the heart and lungs looked okay. I'm guessing the little engine that could obliterated all the arteries it was passing, which apparently worked really well. I guess it's hard to survive a 77TMK passing anywhere through the boiler room at high velocity. Impact would have been around 2,600 fps.




All said, I'm not saying the 223/77TMK is the best rifle possible for dangerous game. This was more about answering the question of "Will it work on something dangerous with less than ideal shot placement?". Sample of one says "Yes, it will".

 

[Thegman]

Well done! What distance was the bear shot at?

50 yards

 

[grappling_hook]

Wow. Thanks for posting!

 

[mtnwrunner(Trandy)]

Very nice and thanks for the data.

Randy

 

[Luke S]

Awesome work Thegman! I do wonder if the heart and or lungs were penetrated by bullet shards that just weren't obvious? Seems hard to make a hole like that while totally missing both. In any case I think a big enough hole in the chest cavity can create negative pressure and collapse lungs even if they don't have a hole in them. That was my understanding after discussing a different bear kill with a church friend who is a retired nurse.
I really need to get back to handloading.... Tikka are cool but a guy could theoretically handle all non bird hunting and self defense needs with an AR15 and 9mm.

 

[Thegman]

Awesome work Thegman! I do wonder if the heart and or lungs were penetrated by bullet shards that just weren't obvious? Seems hard to make a hole like that while totally missing both. In any case I think a big enough hole in the chest cavity can create negative pressure and collapse lungs even if they don't have a hole in them. That was my understanding after discussing a different bear kill with a church friend who is a retired nurse.
I really need to get back to handloading.... Tikka are cool but a guy could theoretically handle all non bird hunting and self defense needs with an AR15 and 9mm.

That's a good question. It was getting dark, like grizzly-thirty in the alders, and I wasn't taking my time to look as closely as I'd have liked to. From the amount of blood though, major blood vessels of some kind were wrecked.

As far as an AR-15 and 9mm, I agree. I'm there with the 9mm, and rapidly getting there with the Solo AR platforms I've been building. A gasser would definitely add to the do-it-all jack of all trades aspect.

 

[Decker9]

That is somethin Gman!, props to a job well done! Ill gladly admit, I was 100% nay sayer when this thread started, but Iv since ( following the whole thread) have changed my thoughts.

I’m pretty married to a particular .375 for this season, but next season I’m super excited to trade in my 375(s) for a .223 for moose and bear, who knows, maybe mountain goat too. Very curious on the expiry time difference I will see between the two. I don’t care about meat loss, but I do care about a fast kill. From what I’m seeing, the expiry times with these small pills seem as quick, if not quicker then my experience with .375’s, which is quite a bit.

Plus, gives me a great excuse to buy another rifle .

Thanks for posting that fine bear!!