.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[N2TRKYS]

Can you present data from the TMK bad side? I've yet to see any data, but would really like to.

I didn’t care for the on game performance of 77 grain TMKs when shooting whitetails. I’ll continue to target and varmint shoot with them, though.

 

[LongWayAround]

223 on walrus


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That's an impressive blood trail!

What bullet? How many shots?

Also, what do you all do with a walrus?

 

[Tahr]

Can you present data from the TMK bad side? I've yet to see any data, but would really like to.

I rest my case.

 

[BLJ]

223 on walrus


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62 grain FMJ again??

 

[Drenalin]

I think the downsides expressed to this point have centered around exits (seems to be a coin flip whether it will or won't) and lack of blood trails. Neither have been an issue for me in a relatively small sample size. I'm also only considering the downsides with TMK and ELDM bullets; I personally don't give a rip about any others and haven't paid attention to what's been posted about them.

 

[Mackey]

At what distance does this 77gr .223 load drop below 1400 ft pounds of energy? That would be my limit.

Mackey

 

[Machingeaneer]

At what distance does this 77gr .223 load drop below 1400 ft pounds of energy? That would be my limit.

Mackey

The muzzle. Fortunately energy has nothing to do with with a bullets ability to kill.

 

[Turkeytider]

About all I`ll say is that if the level of interest as demonstrated by participation in this thread is indicative of a controversial nature regarding this subject....Wow!!

 

[ElPollo]

I rest my case.

My response is not intended to be personal, but I find your argument to be lacking merit. There are over 7400 posts on this thread and hundreds of game animals of multiple species documented here. With the number of people who post about being butt-hurt about someone else choosing to use a 22 centerfire with a TMK or ELDM/X on big game, what do you think the probability is of there being a raft of people who use the combo, experience a failure, but fail to report it? Ever hear of Occam’s Razor? This is the internet, man. If there is drama we would be hearing about it. Instead we get people over and over stating their opinion that using 22 centerfires on anything bigger than a hamster is a bad idea without any data. At what point does one recognize this confirmation bias thing as a conspiracy theory and move on? If you really feel that strongly about this whole thing, why not try using the combo on game within the limitations presented and report you own findings? Based on the data presented, if you put the bullet in the vitals any critter listed in the thread title (except Chupacabras) will die quickly and the only negative comment posted is that the bullet may not exit. I will be using a 223 and TMKs this fall and will report what happens from my own perspective. Feel free to do the same.

 

[atmat]

I rest my case.

I don’t think this is a super helpful response. @Marbles asked you for your opinion on the negatives of TMK based on your experience — and you’ve got a ton of experience culling deer with 22 caliber bullets. You could’ve just chosen to share your experience.

 

[BjornF16]

My response is not intended to be personal, but I find your argument to be lacking merit. There are over 7400 posts on this thread and hundreds of game animals of multiple species documented here. With the number of people who post about being butt-hurt about someone else choosing to use a 22 centerfire with a TMK or ELDM/X on big game, what do you think the probability is of there being a raft of people who use the combo, experience a failure, but fail to report it? Ever hear of Occam’s Razor? This is the internet, man. If there is drama we would be hearing about it. Instead we get people over and over stating their opinion that using 22 centerfires on anything bigger than a hamster is a bad idea without any data. At what point does one recognize this confirmation bias thing as a conspiracy theory and move on? If you really feel that strongly about this whole thing, why not try using the combo on game within the limitations presented and report you own findings? Based on the data presented, if you put the bullet in the vitals any critter listed in the thread title (except Chupacabras) will die quickly and the only negative comment posted is that the bullet may not exit. I will be using a 223 and TMKs this fall and will report what happens from my own perspective. Feel free to do the same.

I think there is a bit of mis-communication here...

@Tahr is not denying the viability of .223 at all, in fact he has posted quite a few results on game using a .223 with a different bullet than the TMK. His point appears to be that there are other bullets in the .223 caliber that are very effective.

I think it would be useful for the 77grn TMK mist to be cleared from some people's eyes. As much as this thread illustrates they work very well it also shows that there is a cluster of other projectiles that are also very effective. We shouldn't be blinded to that. They don't need to be listed 'cos as the fans say, "read the thread".
I wouldn't cry myself to sleep if the only projectile I could use on deer in my .223 was a Gameking. The weight wouldn't concern me much.

 

[ElPollo]

I think there is a bit of mis-communication here...

@Tahr is not denying the viability of .223 at all, in fact he has posted quite a few results on game using a .223 with a different bullet than the TMK. His point appears to be that there are other bullets in the .223 caliber that are very effective.

@Tahr
Apologize if I misunderstood your post.

 

[wind gypsy]

At what distance does this 77gr .223 load drop below 1400 ft pounds of energy? That would be my limit.

Mackey

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

77 grain TMK killers... I plan to kill a pile of big game animals this year with these bullets.

I think I’ve read in here and other threads that somewhere around 1,800 FPS for velocity is the “minimum”. Can anyone who’s killed with these regularity and reliably, comment on if I am reading that incorrectly?

I want to have a solid big game yardage “cutoff”. Nothing to crazy detailed because obviously there are other factors involved, but a good starting point baseline is what I’m after here.

 

[omicron1792]

77 grain TMK killers... I plan to kill a pile of big game animals this year with these bullets.

I think I’ve read in here and other threads that somewhere around 1,800 FPS for velocity is the “minimum”. Can anyone who’s killed with these regularity and reliably, comment on if I am reading that incorrectly?

I want to have a solid big game yardage “cutoff”. Nothing to crazy detailed because obviously there are other factors involved, but a good starting point baseline is what I’m after here.

I’ve used on 2 coyotes with good success, so no expert, but I thought I read where @Formidilosus has said they will disrupt down to about 1400

 

[Billogna]

77 grain TMK killers... I plan to kill a pile of big game animals this year with these bullets.

I think I’ve read in here and other threads that somewhere around 1,800 FPS for velocity is the “minimum”. Can anyone who’s killed with these regularity and reliably, comment on if I am reading that incorrectly?

I want to have a solid big game yardage “cutoff”. Nothing to crazy detailed because obviously there are other factors involved, but a good starting point baseline is what I’m after here.

1800fps minimum for reliable upset and fragmentation. For most 223 rem's that puts max effective range around 400-450 yds depending on muzzle velo.

 

[Marbles]

I rest my case.

Well, I rest my case that you have no case. What, that is a completely worthless jib that serves no purpose, I take it back.

If your case is that someone else does not make the case for you and asks to have it shown, well my conclusion is that you have no case worth discussion.

Everything can succeed and everything can fail. One failure, or a few successes make for a very weak case. Hell, Bella Twin took a world record grizzly with a 22 (probably a 22 short, but perhaps a 22 long rifle) and Gene Moe Killed a costal brown with a knife.

If limited data is all the data we have, then we have no choice but to use it. However, there is a whole lot of success data buried in the thread with a few people who don't like certain aspects (no exit, poor blood trails, Etc.). If you want to have a case, for your accusation of intellectual laziness, which you have now specifically leveled against me by the way, stop being intellectually lazy yourself and make a case. That case, to be worth considering, must show that the 223/TMK fails more than a commonly accepted alternative (say a 7 mag loaded with Accubonds).

For the record, it was my own attempt to actually make a case against the 223/TMK that lead to me accepting it, because I failed to find the data I expected that showed it not to work.

 

[Thegman]

Never fear, the 77TMK is here...


I got this bear last night. Only squares around 7' so not a big boar, but plenty big to ruin your day if he so decided.

I wasn't interested in a broadside lung shot...boring...I have zero doubt a 77TMK makes it through the lungs/heart in that situation and kills the bear. I really wanted to test the "but what about hunting with a 223 around grizzlies/brown bears?" question that continues to come up here and there. So, yes, let's see what happens with a non-preferred shot, at least in an example of one.

I really was hoping for a full frontal chest shot but he didn't turn quite enough so I hit the point of the shoulder on a hard quartering to at about this angle, below.


Bear spun and ran about 80 yards and piled up. Interestingly, he ran to and died on the same spot another bear did last year, shot by someone else with a 338 WM, broadside, double lunged in that case. They called me to bring my dog because they couldn't find blood. I didn’t either with the 77TMK and didn't expect to with my shot choice, but wasn't concerned about that with my hunting partner. Got to give her props!!


I'll post the autopsy pics in the next post...

 

[mddat]

Well done! What distance was the bear shot at?

 

[omicron1792]

Never fear, the 77TMK is here...
View attachment 718589

I got this bear last night. Only squares around 7' so not a big boar, but plenty big to ruin your day if he so decided.

I wasn't interested in a broadside lung shot...boring...I have zero doubt a 77TMK makes it through the lungs/heart in that situation and kills the bear. I really wanted to test the "but what about hunting with a 223 around grizzlies/brown bears?" question that continues to come up here and there. So, yes, let's see what happens with a non-preferred shot, at least in an example of one.

I really was hoping for a full frontal chest shot but he didn't turn quite enough so I hit the point of the shoulder on a hard quartering to at about this angle, below.
View attachment 718591

Bear spun and ran about 80 yards and piled up. Interestingly, he ran to and died on the same spot another bear did last year, shot by someone else with a 338 WM, broadside, double lunged in that case. They called me to bring my dog because they couldn't find blood. I didn’t either with the 77TMK and didn't expect to with my shot choice, but wasn't concerned about that with my hunting partner. Got to give her props!!
View attachment 718595

I'll post the autopsy pics in the next post...

Legend