.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Axlrod]

Well you could look at it that way, but you could also look at it as more information on WHY it’s working. If you watch the video all the way through he specifically mentions ballistic gel not being a perfect match and some of the variables that can affect the shape and size of the wound like bones etc, and that generally speaking the wound will be larger in a live target because of the variable medium.

By your logic there is no need to post anymore reports on its performance in the field period. Close the thread and We will make a tab somewhere in rokslide that says “223 rem 77gr TMK for deer, elk, bear, moose… It works” No further data points or evidence needed/wanted.

I don't need anymore reports on it's performance, or pictures of what it does to the inside of a deer. Just like I don't need Form to drop another ATACR. But it seems like people still like to post pics and others like to look at them. And there are new people on here all the time, some that might not be convinced until they see the 257th animal killed with a 223.
An old gamblers mantra: If red comes up 3 times you either bet red or you go home.

 

[Anschutz]

75 ELDM is skookum.



P

I really like it for my "long line" loads for service rifle. Not as cheap as the A-Max was but still cheaper than Sierra 80gr SMKs or Bergers, and they shoot plenty accurately for my purposes. I'd put one in a deers lungs, but I'm not toting a 14lb AR into the woods.

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[bnsafe]

well I got a box of BH 77 tmk for christmas, so next year I will be seeing for myself how this works in real life. I would be lying if I didnt say I wasnt apprehensive, not in the ability to kill something, but how fast it anchors them in place. But, the evidence presented here at least deserves a real life test.
I will be using my match grade AR 15 so will lose some ballistics, but I can count on one hand the number of times Ive shot deer over a hundred where I hunt so shouldnt be a issue.

 

[Squincher]

Do the OAL length and Tikka magazine issues apply to factory loaded ammo or is it just a concern for reloaders?

 

[Mike Islander]

We are on the same page. I appreciate that we have moved from “useless” to “fairly useless”. This is a more factually correct statement.

Bullet profile, construction ,mass, velocity (the infamous E word), bullet diameter, sectional density, and the target/test medium are all connected to each other. We cannot throw variables or potential variables completely out the window when talking about terminal performance.

I am specifically talking about how a bullet interacts with the target or in other words terminal performance, and not the most common side affect of this exchange (death of the animal).

Bullet construction, should absolutely be ranked near the top in the priority list. When hunting with any caliber/cartridge.

while anyone of these listed variables may be heavily dependent on another listed variable. If it has the potential to affect terminal performance it by definition cannot be “useless”.

Kinetic energy IS in all practicality useless if it is not necessary or cancels to zero in the actual equation. And the actual equation here is performance in game. Present in that equation is energy transfer (not original bullet kinetic energy) to the game, but (though there is an upper bound in KE) that transfer is not necessarily directly proportional to kinetic energy, as it is dependent on bullet design and other variables and can vary tremendously over a very wide range of KE. And since we don't have any easy way to measure numerical energy transfer, we fall back on actual real world results, which of course is the final arbiter of all models, no matter how well they represent reality.

Of course KE is necessary, but the number (above some theoretical low) isn't a useful metric by itself, and isn't easily useful with other variables. We don't use it in our judgement of performance anymore, and it can be extremely misleading when used by itself.

 

[ORJoe]

When I drive my truck at 60mph it has 480,000 ft-lbs of kinetic energy.
Do I need 480,000 ft-lbs of energy to get home? No, it's a side effect that can be calculated but ultimately the 60mph part is important and the energy isn't.
If I ride my motorcycle instead it's 35,000 ft-lbs.
Yes, it takes energy to get home. If either vehicle was going 0 mph and had 0 ft-lbs of energy, I would be walking which would not work in the same way that a bullet at 0 fps will not kill an elk.
But it doesn't take 35,000 or 200,000 or 480,000 ft-lbs of energy to get home in 15 minutes, it takes 60 mph.

 

[swavescatter]

Do the OAL length and Tikka magazine issues apply to factory loaded ammo or is it just a concern for reloaders?

Just for reloading past SAAMI COAL specs. Any factory ammo will be good to go.

 

[Squincher]

Just for reloading past SAAMI COAL specs. Any factory ammo will be good to go.

Thanks

 

[Gstew1930]

Ok it took me about a week to finish this whole thread. Let me start with theres not near enough evidence that the .223 is good for anything larger than a coyote. i need something with way more "knockdown" power like my ole 30-06 and a barnes tsx bullet. Lmao ok all kidding aside i think i've learned more for this thread than anything ive ever read on the internet. The shoot 2 hunt podcast with form about bullets is right there with it. I know some guys put alot of time and work into this & i appreciate it a ton! I dont have a RSS but i did order a .223 ackley barrel for my WTO switch lug to test for myself. At this point i think meth would be a cheaper hobby lol

 

[dirtshooter]

Alright well I read 292 pages in like 2 weeks jesus.

Like 5 years ago a buddy and I went on a boar hunt with 223s. Headshots sub 100 yards resulted in 2 dead pigs. I was shooting fed fusion 62gr, not sure what he had. The "guide" said to keep shooting as he was sure one shot from a 223 wouldn't be enough. 1 was but I shot a couple more times to appease him.

Now for big game in AB we are limited to .24cal as a minimum so I'll keep hunting with my regular hunting rifles as I doubt the cal law will change.

 

[Gstew1930]

Honest question

Has anyone ever heard or seen anyone get in trouble for shooting something under the legal caliber? Doesn’t seem like that would be a common thing. I plan on taking my 22 creed everywhere

 

[Anschutz]

Honest question

Has anyone ever heard or seen anyone get in trouble for shooting something under the legal caliber? Doesn’t seem like that would be a common thing. I plan on taking my 22 creed everywhere

I won't recommend poaching (hunting outside the regs). I've never seen it, but the only place I've ever been stopped is Alaska.

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[Big_wals]

Honest question

Has anyone ever heard or seen anyone get in trouble for shooting something under the legal caliber? Doesn’t seem like that would be a common thing. I plan on taking my 22 creed everywhere

I would never recommend poaching either, but I bet necked down brass that's headstamped 6mm creed would get you past anyone who did check

 

[wyosam]

I would never recommend poaching either, but I bet necked down brass that's headstamped 6mm creed would get you past anyone who did check

Yeah, they’ll definitely check ammo and not the barrel stamp.


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[dirtshooter]

Yeah, they’ll definitely check ammo and not the barrel stamp.


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Not every rifle has a barrel stamp though.

 

[Big_wals]

Yeah, they’ll definitely check ammo and not the barrel stamp.


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Yeah, thats true. Guess anyone building a Poachers Special better do a rattle can camo job , with extra coats on the barrel. Or, alternatively, just use a cartridge that's legal

 

[misfit713]

I've hunted with 223/556 for 20 years. 2 legged and 4. I currently hunt with 75grn T2 bullet out of 12.5-14.5" ARs and have amazing results on deer sized game and down. 200y of reliable frag from the 14.5 and its dropped deer at 250 easily. In fact, I've never had to even really look for a deer with this combo. However, this thread got me to order a case of BH 77tmk to try too. TMK should push my frag window out to 300-350m. I have a few to harvest, so ill try and get one with the T2 and one 77tmk for the haters. I also need to stop being lazy and hunt coyotes at some point.

What blows me away after spending 5 days reading about stuff I already knew is the amount of people who after reading A LOT of evidence still defend their narrow mindset on the 223.

It's crazy that someone can tout "hunters owe it to game to make ethical kills" and "you should use the biggest round you can in case something happens" in the same breath. The premise of these two ideas fundamentally don't align.

1st, when's the escalation end? You got guys on here using 300wm for deer inside 200m! Why not a .50? Seriously. Next is the in case something happens thought… You own that trigger, you pull it, and "something happens" that's on you, got to read the situation. Its .3 second time of flight to 300m Make better choices, make better placement. Be a rifleman first, hunter second. We owe it to game to be accurate, and as a hunter for food, I cannot stand to see both shoulders turned to jello.

 

[PA HUNTR]

New guy here, absolutely blown away by this.

I found myself lurking on here a few weeks ago with the intentions of buying my daughter either a 6 ARC or 6.5 Grendel for her first deer rifle. I ended up with a Howa mini action chambered in 6.5 Grendel and ultimately based my decision off of brass availability.

I found myself still on here reading about the Grendel and stumbled across this thread. I started reading and my narrow minded self thought there’s no way people are using a .223 on these sized animals with great success.

I have always hunted with a 308, 300 WSM, 270, 25-06, etc. I never thought the 223 was sufficient enough for anything other than varmints. I made it to page 144, still have not finished this entire thread, but there was enough credible evidence for me to take the plunge.

I have locally sourced a Tikka T3X lite stainless with 1:8 twist, (have not picked it up yet) and a couple hundred 77 gr TMK’s to start this adventure. Thanks for all the info to all who have posted such positive results with these combos. Looking forward to all the future information on this site!!

 

[PNWGATOR]

New guy here, absolutely blown away by this.

I found myself lurking on here a few weeks ago with the intentions of buying my daughter either a 6 ARC or 6.5 Grendel for her first deer rifle. I ended up with a Howa mini action chambered in 6.5 Grendel and ultimately based my decision off of brass availability.

I found myself still on here reading about the Grendel and stumbled across this thread. I started reading and my narrow minded self thought there’s no way people are using a .223 on these sized animals with great success.

I have always hunted with a 308, 300 WSM, 270, 25-06, etc. I never thought the 223 was sufficient enough for anything other than varmints. I made it to page 144, still have not finished this entire thread, but there was enough credible evidence for me to take the plunge.

I have locally sourced a Tikka T3X lite stainless with 1:8 twist, (have not picked it up yet) and a couple hundred 77 gr TMK’s to start this adventure. Thanks for all the info to all who have posted such positive results with these combos. Looking forward to all the future information on this site!!

Not sure how old your daughter is or of her physical stature, however, a Tikka T3x compact .223 cut and threaded and fitted with a can is generally THE answer.

Find a SWFA 6x milquad mil/mil and put it in Unknown Munitions rings and have her purposefully practice and burn out a barrel.

 

[PA HUNTR]

Not sure how old your daughter is or of her physical stature, however, a Tikka T3x compact .223 cut and threaded and fitted with a can is generally THE answer.

Find a SWFA 6x milquad mil/mil and put it in Unknown Munitions rings and have her purposefully practice and burn out a barrel.

I just got her behind a pellet gun this summer, and recently added a 22 to the mix. So not anytime soon. My intentions with the Howa was to put it in an MDT Oryx youth chassis with an arca rail to be able to attach it to a tripod. The T3X compact is a great idea!! Funny you say that because I was actually thinking that the other morning driving to work, that a 223 compact would be a good rifle to move into in the future.