.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Drenalin]

Maybe change .223 in the thread title to 77 TMK? Then we can get back to the gory pics?

I still think we should do this.

 

[fwafwow]

View attachment 647146

* EFFECTIVE TERMINAL PERFORMANCE TO 400+ YARDS
MOST shots are taken well inside this range.
Ethical efficacy has been clearly demonstrated with hundreds of photos.
BUT BUT BUT…. A .789 Über Mag has more energy, therefore with an apples to apples fragmenting type bullet, it kills better and provides a margin for error!
ANSWER: Unneeded, Unwanted, Wrong.
Unneeded - See photos, can they get more deaderer?
Unwanted - Some comment on excessive meat loss already.
Wrong - More energy on target = more recoil = bad shooting habits = Greater shot error.
Mitigate effects of error, by introducing greater initial error??? What are we missing?

* MINIMAL RECOIL
Facilitates good shooting form, Ability to self spot impacts, stay on target for quick follow up, and enables extensive practice to improve skill set and know personal shooting limits.
This = Ethical hunting.
BUT BUT BUT…. I’m a real man & can shoot my .789 Über Mag without flinching… EVER!
ANSWER: Cool, you are a rare shooter indeed. Extensive research shows this to be very uncommon. MOST demonstrate a direct correlation between greater inaccuracy and increased recoil.
Next, can you self spot impacts with a .789 Über Mag?
Next, can you quickly get back on target for accurate / adjusted follow up?
Next, Are you able to practice extensively to improve skill with this combo and know your limitations?
If “No” to any of these questions, does this lean toward ethical or unethical hunting?

* RELATIVE LOW COST PER ROUND
The ubiquity of .223 components and ammo make this one of, if not THE least expensive centerfire rifle cartridge to shoot. This allows shooting many multiples of any Über Mag for = $$$. It’s not even close.

So before you, BUT BUT BUT…. go straight to the chart. Does your recommendation check ALL the boxes? If not, it doesn’t meet the objective of this thread. Maybe start a new thread with a different goal.

Well done. Especially the umlauts.

 

[Shraggs]

10E

Your remarkable turnaround is odd. Trying to contribute is also odd. Given your stated goals and inexperience. This thread you haven’t read and 15 others is a much better way to contribute.

Read more, learn more. Asking questions about what you might not get or understand or have different actual OBSERVATIONS is the way…. Not trying to teach without the background to support it.

 

[MEdude]

.223 / 77 TMK is the sweet spot.
Tweek here… 22CM / 22-250 etc = same difference
Tweek there….Close weight TMK / ELD-M etc = same difference

Big mass / Big energy = completely different formula.

Seems that often gets the Rok throwing started…

 

[10E]

I’m confused. I thought you were first weighing in with a view contrary to the consensus on this thread. (I concede that the consensus view isn’t always a correct one.) Now you are posting 11 min videos in support and surprised at the reaction, or lack thereof? If you don’t answer specific questions, don’t

10E

Your remarkable turnaround is odd. Trying to contribute is also odd. Given your stated goals and inexperience. This thread you haven’t read and 15 others is a much better way to contribute.

Read more, learn more. Asking questions about what you might not get or understand or have different actual OBSERVATIONS is the way…. Not trying to teach without the background to support it.

I think the only point of contention @10E had was in regards to energy's role in this whole thing. He's been pretty clear that he agrees smaller calibers work with the right bullets (right = match, by and large, but not exclusively). I could be off, I'm not going back through the last few days to check, but at this point it feels like everybody just needs something to shoot at and he happens to be standing in the open.

thank you!

 

[roosiebull]

Well you could look at it that way, but you could also look at it as more information on WHY it’s working. If you watch the video all the way through he specifically mentions ballistic gel not being a perfect match and some of the variables that can affect the shape and size of the wound like bones etc, and that generally speaking the wound will be larger in a live target because of the variable medium.

By your logic there is no need to post anymore reports on its performance in the field period. Close the thread and We will make a tab somewhere in rokslide that says “223 rem 77gr TMK for deer, elk, bear, moose… It works” No further data points or evidence needed/wanted.

I think everyone is pretty much on the same page… if a small TMK makes a big wound at 223 velocities, a big tmk in a 30 cal is going to make a bigger wound at similar velocity.

As far as energy, if you take 2 bullets out of the same gun at the same velocity, but different construction, the same amount of energy is present, one bullet will pencil through, one will leave a softball sized exit… energy tells you nothing relative to the wound.

Or, you could take a small match bullet with very low energy, create a massive wound, and compare that to a large fmj, or even something like a swift a frame with 4x the energy and have a small narrow wound, hence energy is a fairly useless metric when it comes to performance on game

If we maximize small cartridges, we can get desired effects on critters (quick clean kills that are anything but marginal) rather than choking down larger cartridges to get the same result.

If we can get very reliable good results from a small cartridge, what is the point of dealing with heavy recoil and expensive cartridges? (I know you are on the same page)

At the same time, people should always use what they are confident in, but it certainly doesn’t hurt to understand the broader picture.

 

[Pharmseller]

I still think we should do this.

75 ELDM is skookum.



P

 

[10E]

I think everyone is pretty much on the same page… if a small TMK makes a big wound at 223 velocities, a big tmk in a 30 cal is going to make a bigger wound at similar velocity.

As far as energy, if you take 2 bullets out of the same gun at the same velocity, but different construction, the same amount of energy is present, one bullet will pencil through, one will leave a softball sized exit… energy tells you nothing relative to the wound.

Or, you could take a small match bullet with very low energy, create a massive wound, and compare that to a large fmj, or even something like a swift a frame with 4x the energy and have a small narrow wound, hence energy is a fairly useless metric when it comes to performance on game

If we maximize small cartridges, we can get desired effects on critters (quick clean kills that are anything but marginal) rather than choking down larger cartridges to get the same result.

If we can get very reliable good results from a small cartridge, what is the point of dealing with heavy recoil and expensive cartridges? (I know you are on the same page)

At the same time, people should always use what they are confident in, but it certainly doesn’t hurt to understand the broader picture.

We are on the same page. I appreciate that we have moved from “useless” to “fairly useless”. This is a more factually correct statement.

Bullet profile, construction ,mass, velocity (the infamous E word), bullet diameter, sectional density, and the target/test medium are all connected to each other. We cannot throw variables or potential variables completely out the window when talking about terminal performance.

I am specifically talking about how a bullet interacts with the target or in other words terminal performance, and not the most common side affect of this exchange (death of the animal).

Bullet construction, should absolutely be ranked near the top in the priority list. When hunting with any caliber/cartridge.

while anyone of these listed variables may be heavily dependent on another listed variable. If it has the potential to affect terminal performance it by definition cannot be “useless”.

 

[Axlrod]

Well you could look at it that way, but you could also look at it as more information on WHY it’s working. If you watch the video all the way through he specifically mentions ballistic gel not being a perfect match and some of the variables that can affect the shape and size of the wound like bones etc, and that generally speaking the wound will be larger in a live target because of the variable medium.

By your logic there is no need to post anymore reports on its performance in the field period. Close the thread and We will make a tab somewhere in rokslide that says “223 rem 77gr TMK for deer, elk, bear, moose… It works” No further data points or evidence needed/wanted.

I don't need anymore reports on it's performance, or pictures of what it does to the inside of a deer. Just like I don't need Form to drop another ATACR. But it seems like people still like to post pics and others like to look at them. And there are new people on here all the time, some that might not be convinced until they see the 257th animal killed with a 223.
An old gamblers mantra: If red comes up 3 times you either bet red or you go home.

 

[Anschutz]

75 ELDM is skookum.



P

I really like it for my "long line" loads for service rifle. Not as cheap as the A-Max was but still cheaper than Sierra 80gr SMKs or Bergers, and they shoot plenty accurately for my purposes. I'd put one in a deers lungs, but I'm not toting a 14lb AR into the woods.

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[bnsafe]

well I got a box of BH 77 tmk for christmas, so next year I will be seeing for myself how this works in real life. I would be lying if I didnt say I wasnt apprehensive, not in the ability to kill something, but how fast it anchors them in place. But, the evidence presented here at least deserves a real life test.
I will be using my match grade AR 15 so will lose some ballistics, but I can count on one hand the number of times Ive shot deer over a hundred where I hunt so shouldnt be a issue.

 

[Squincher]

Do the OAL length and Tikka magazine issues apply to factory loaded ammo or is it just a concern for reloaders?

 

[Mike Islander]

We are on the same page. I appreciate that we have moved from “useless” to “fairly useless”. This is a more factually correct statement.

Bullet profile, construction ,mass, velocity (the infamous E word), bullet diameter, sectional density, and the target/test medium are all connected to each other. We cannot throw variables or potential variables completely out the window when talking about terminal performance.

I am specifically talking about how a bullet interacts with the target or in other words terminal performance, and not the most common side affect of this exchange (death of the animal).

Bullet construction, should absolutely be ranked near the top in the priority list. When hunting with any caliber/cartridge.

while anyone of these listed variables may be heavily dependent on another listed variable. If it has the potential to affect terminal performance it by definition cannot be “useless”.

Kinetic energy IS in all practicality useless if it is not necessary or cancels to zero in the actual equation. And the actual equation here is performance in game. Present in that equation is energy transfer (not original bullet kinetic energy) to the game, but (though there is an upper bound in KE) that transfer is not necessarily directly proportional to kinetic energy, as it is dependent on bullet design and other variables and can vary tremendously over a very wide range of KE. And since we don't have any easy way to measure numerical energy transfer, we fall back on actual real world results, which of course is the final arbiter of all models, no matter how well they represent reality.

Of course KE is necessary, but the number (above some theoretical low) isn't a useful metric by itself, and isn't easily useful with other variables. We don't use it in our judgement of performance anymore, and it can be extremely misleading when used by itself.

 

[ORJoe]

When I drive my truck at 60mph it has 480,000 ft-lbs of kinetic energy.
Do I need 480,000 ft-lbs of energy to get home? No, it's a side effect that can be calculated but ultimately the 60mph part is important and the energy isn't.
If I ride my motorcycle instead it's 35,000 ft-lbs.
Yes, it takes energy to get home. If either vehicle was going 0 mph and had 0 ft-lbs of energy, I would be walking which would not work in the same way that a bullet at 0 fps will not kill an elk.
But it doesn't take 35,000 or 200,000 or 480,000 ft-lbs of energy to get home in 15 minutes, it takes 60 mph.

 

[swavescatter]

Do the OAL length and Tikka magazine issues apply to factory loaded ammo or is it just a concern for reloaders?

Just for reloading past SAAMI COAL specs. Any factory ammo will be good to go.

 

[Squincher]

Just for reloading past SAAMI COAL specs. Any factory ammo will be good to go.

Thanks

 

[Gstew1930]

Ok it took me about a week to finish this whole thread. Let me start with theres not near enough evidence that the .223 is good for anything larger than a coyote. i need something with way more "knockdown" power like my ole 30-06 and a barnes tsx bullet. Lmao ok all kidding aside i think i've learned more for this thread than anything ive ever read on the internet. The shoot 2 hunt podcast with form about bullets is right there with it. I know some guys put alot of time and work into this & i appreciate it a ton! I dont have a RSS but i did order a .223 ackley barrel for my WTO switch lug to test for myself. At this point i think meth would be a cheaper hobby lol

 

[dirtshooter]

Alright well I read 292 pages in like 2 weeks jesus.

Like 5 years ago a buddy and I went on a boar hunt with 223s. Headshots sub 100 yards resulted in 2 dead pigs. I was shooting fed fusion 62gr, not sure what he had. The "guide" said to keep shooting as he was sure one shot from a 223 wouldn't be enough. 1 was but I shot a couple more times to appease him.

Now for big game in AB we are limited to .24cal as a minimum so I'll keep hunting with my regular hunting rifles as I doubt the cal law will change.

 

[Gstew1930]

Honest question

Has anyone ever heard or seen anyone get in trouble for shooting something under the legal caliber? Doesn’t seem like that would be a common thing. I plan on taking my 22 creed everywhere

 

[Anschutz]

Honest question

Has anyone ever heard or seen anyone get in trouble for shooting something under the legal caliber? Doesn’t seem like that would be a common thing. I plan on taking my 22 creed everywhere

I won't recommend poaching (hunting outside the regs). I've never seen it, but the only place I've ever been stopped is Alaska.

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