.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Jimbee]

Merry Christmas!

You guys keep talking about the “cool kids.”

Serious question, am I one of the cool kids? If not, what do I have to do to be included?





P

Cool kids don't ask if they're cool kids.

 

[Pharmseller]

Cool kids don't ask if they're cool kids.

Dammit.

 

[wirehead]

Mayne I’m not thinking about it the right way. The 205 did use up all the energy in the animal because it didn’t have enough to pass through the animal.

I’m not sure if I’ll explain this very well and maybe it’s not even a thing outside my head. Haha. I guess maybe the energy to weight ratio would be a way to describe it. The ratio for the deer with the 77 tmk the energy got used up in all the 77 grains by completely fragmenting the entire bullet so it was not found. With the 205 there was a good sized chunk of bullet left so the energy available didn’t get used up by expanding the bullet and expending it into fragments. Of course different bullet construction so that’s part of it to.

Maybe that doesn’t make sense or only does in my head. Hahaha

As to the bullet not passing through the deer at that close of a range I’m dumbfounded. I have so explanation to that. Was a slightly quartering to shot, bullet entered and exited body cavity behind shoulders. Maybe hit a rib on each side. Wife shot a deer with same gun at 120 yards with similar results. Dead deer with bullet caught under opposite hide.

Edited to add :

Before this experience with several deer with this 300 PRC that energy was king. And pair that with a rapid expanding bullet and you’d be unstoppable. Haha. After that I stumbled onto this thread and it was an eye opener. Learning the truth that it’s the speed that causes a bullet to start upsetting not the energy. Digging into it more bullet makers have a speed threshold for their bullets not an energy threshold. Mind. Blown. Make you wonder why states have energy minimums and the majority of the gun industry talks about energy when it’s really not part of the equation. Its speed not energy that causes expansion.

My theory, based on what I’ve experienced, is that with a bullet you’ll have generally the same amount of penetration across the speed range with the wound channel being more explosive and larger at the high end of the velocity range and the opposite at the lower end. With the bullet fragmenting more at high end creating that larger wound and at the lower end the bullet holding together more. I could wrong on this but it seems like that with the deer we’ve shot not o ly with the 22 cals but across the board. I know there’s another factors that play a role in penetration as well so I’m just generalizing here.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have a 300 wsm shooting 205s. Don’t want to make this another “term perf” thread - sent you a PM. I got ?s. Thanks for the thorough reply!!!!

 

[Anschutz]

Merry Christmas. Hopefully someone got a .223 and a few thousand TMK (yeah right) so we have a lot more pictures next year.

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

 

[Parkerpusher]

Late to this party, new to RS and lots of reading to catch up. Last year I got tired of shooting deer with a 30-06 and used .223 just to try it, since it’s recently legal here. Cleanest kill on a whitetail buck I’ve ever made. Wasn’t sure I should push my luck, so this year I bought 2 new rifles for the first time in a good many years and went back up in the ladder in caliber (6.5 & 7mm). After reading everything here, I think I will go back to the 223 a little more purposefully next year….. as in pick up a rifle I like and pick a better projectile.

 

[Mike Islander]

Merry Christmas!

You guys keep talking about the “cool kids.”

Serious question, am I one of the cool kids? If not, what do I have to do to be included?

Sure, kid, you're one of us. Really.

 

[Chris_in_Idaho]

Late to this party, new to RS and lots of reading to catch up. Last year I got tired of shooting deer with a 30-06 and used .223 just to try it, since it’s recently legal here. Cleanest kill on a whitetail buck I’ve ever made. Wasn’t sure I should push my luck, so this year I bought 2 new rifles for the first time in a good many years and went back up in the ladder in caliber (6.5 & 7mm). After reading everything here, I think I will go back to the 223 a little more purposefully next year….. as in pick up a rifle I like and pick a better projectile.

Very nice!
What projectile did you use?

 

[Parkerpusher]

Very nice!
What projectile did you use?

I used a 64gr Winchester power point.

 

[Billy Goat]

Dammit.

Don't worry, the ones with drugs are the cool kids.







Use to be weed, now it's a little blue pill.

 

[eric1115]

Young man got his RSS this morning. .223 compact, sportsmatch, and 6x SWFA (an old MOA one I pulled off another rifle to use while we wait for the 6x MQ to come back into stock).

He did the tear down, full degrease, loctited reassembly as well as scope mounting following the posts @Formidilosus has made explaining his processes. He learned a few things today, including that his dad can gift a rifle in a box that isn't rifle sized. He's super stoked to move up from his Ruger American 7mm-08.

 

[wirehead]

Young man got his RSS this morning. .223 compact, sportsmatch, and 6x SWFA (an old MOA one I pulled off another rifle to use while we wait for the 6x MQ to come back into stock).

He did the tear down, full degrease, loctited reassembly as well as scope mounting following the posts @Formidilosus has made explaining his processes. He learned a few things today, including that his dad can gift a rifle in a box that isn't rifle sized. He's super stoked to move up from his Ruger American 7mm-08.


View attachment 646997View attachment 646998View attachment 647001

*Super like button*

 

[roosiebull]

10E.......Yes, you are correct with the circle analogy.
Look, no one is trying to convince you or anyone else to use a 223. It is CLEARLY evident you have your mindset as to what to use. Great, use it.
You joined Rokslide today and all you have contributed to our site is posting on this thread. As I stated before, I'm not sure why you are here other than to stir the pot and I suspect other alternative reasons. This thread has been very informative to ALOT of members and it certainly is very educational, like it or not.
I can't speak for everyone else but it's obvious to me what you believe.
That being said, if you have any additional information OTHER than what's already been said, then include it. If you don't, well then don't.

Randy

I have said this a few times in this thread, but this is the most educational compilation I’ve seen on the internet, and I will take what billy goat said a step further… it’s not even really about one bullet, it’s about terminal performance in general, all of the information isn’t limited to one 77gr bullet, or the .223, it can be applied to any cartridge to get whatever outcome you desire, even if that means losing 40% of the meat to kill deader.

What is cool, is that the little .223 with no consequences when you pull the trigger is so capable with a few choice projectiles… that’s where the cartridge and TMK come in, and creates more tissue damage than most of the larger cartridges I’ve shot game with paired with the traditional hunting bullets I have always used.

I avoided match bullets for a long time, I knew they worked, but those who touted them couldn’t tell me how they worked, and my traditional hunting bullets worked, so why change to something that I don’t understand from something that works?

This thread alone (plenty of other resources since) explained to me how they work and why they are a legit option

Now I need to find a reply of 10E’s to quote, because I feel like the only one in this thread that hasn’t

 

[Billy Goat]

I have said this a few times in this thread, but this is the most educational compilation I’ve seen on the internet, and I will take what billy goat said a step further… it’s not even really about one bullet, it’s about terminal performance in general, all of the information isn’t limited to one 77gr bullet, or the .223, it can be applied to any cartridge to get whatever outcome you desire, even if that means losing 40% of the meat to kill deader.

What is cool, is that the little .223 with no consequences when you pull the trigger is so capable with a few choice projectiles… that’s where the cartridge and TMK come in, and creates more tissue damage than most of the larger cartridges I’ve shot game with paired with the traditional hunting bullets I have always used.

I avoided match bullets for a long time, I knew they worked, but those who touted them couldn’t tell me how they worked, and my traditional hunting bullets worked, so why change to something that I don’t understand from something that works?

This thread alone (plenty of other resources since) explained to me how they work and why they are a legit option

Now I need to find a reply of 10E’s to quote, because I feel like the only one in this thread that hasn’t

It's the domino effect of when you think in the critical parts.


If this, wait what?

 

[roosiebull]

I honestly would like to learn something if I am wrong.

If you are seeking knowledge, there is an episode of the shoot2hunt podcast called “bullet ballistics: a hunters guide” that goes into all of your points in this thread, and goes over it all very thoroughly.

I’m certainly not going to try to convince anyone of anything, and the majority of rifle hunting has been in the Fudd mindset with bullets and cartridges, but I like good logical information, especially when it bucks status quo’s with real world data, but that’s irrelevant

If you truly are trying to understand just to know, and/or utilize, that podcast goes through everything you have brought up in this thread. It directly relates to your points in this thread

 

[Billy Goat]

If you are seeking knowledge, there is an episode of the shoot2hunt podcast called “bullet ballistics: a hunters guide” that goes into all of your points in this thread, and goes over it all very thoroughly.

I’m certainly not going to try to convince anyone of anything, and the majority of rifle hunting has been in the Fudd mindset with bullets and cartridges, but I like good logical information, especially when it bucks status quo’s with real world data, but that’s irrelevant

If you truly are trying to understand just to know, and/or utilize, that podcast goes through everything you have brought up in this thread. It directly relates to your points in this thread

Damnit Roosie, you don't learn nothing from podcasts.

It's pictures with words where it's instructional. All my books in higher education were that.

 

[ThatDUDE]

If you are seeking knowledge, there is an episode of the shoot2hunt podcast called “bullet ballistics: a hunters guide” that goes into all of your points in this thread, and goes over it all very thoroughly.

I’m certainly not going to try to convince anyone of anything, and the majority of rifle hunting has been in the Fudd mindset with bullets and cartridges, but I like good logical information, especially when it bucks status quo’s with real world data, but that’s irrelevant

If you truly are trying to understand just to know, and/or utilize, that podcast goes through everything you have brought up in this thread. It directly relates to your points in this thread

Said Podcast

 

[10E]

Not sure if the link will work.
If not the title is “ballistics gel hunting vs Match bullets episode 22” on “Long range hunting group” YouTube channel.

This is a good video on the TMK bullet. Unfortunately a 69 gr was tested (not a 77 gr) 224 at 2,837 fps impact velocity/1,233 foot pounds of potential energy side by side compared to a 175 gr .30 cal. at an impact velocity 2,580 fps/ 2,585 foot pounds of potential energy. I feel it adds to the thread and illustrates in a little more controlled setting what you guys are seeing on game as far as larger than what would normally be expected wounding from the smaller caliber/cartridge.

 

[BjornF16]

Not sure if the link will work.
If not the title is “ballistics gel hunting vs Match bullets episode 22” on “Long range hunting group” YouTube channel.

This is a good video on the TMK bullet. Unfortunately a 69 gr was tested (not a 77 gr) 224 at 2,837 fps impact velocity/1,233 foot pounds of potential energy side by side compared to a 175 gr .30 cal. at an impact velocity 2,580 fps/ 2,585 foot pounds of potential energy. I feel it adds to the thread and illustrates in a little more controlled setting what you guys are seeing on game as far as larger than what would normally be expected wounding from the smaller caliber/cartridge.

Give it up dude. That video is 2 years old and has already been discussed.

For the umpteenth time, start your own thread detailing how energy kills…maybe you’ll convince someone who hasn’t participated in this thread

 

[Tartan]

Not sure if the link will work.
If not the title is “ballistics gel hunting vs Match bullets episode 22” on “Long range hunting group” YouTube channel.

This is a good video on the TMK bullet. Unfortunately a 69 gr was tested (not a 77 gr) 224 at 2,837 fps impact velocity/1,233 foot pounds of potential energy side by side compared to a 175 gr .30 cal. at an impact velocity 2,580 fps/ 2,585 foot pounds of potential energy. I feel it adds to the thread and illustrates in a little more controlled setting what you guys are seeing on game as far as larger than what would normally be expected wounding from the smaller caliber/cartridge.

For the most part I think 10E gets it. But not having been around for the 3+ years of this threads existence causes some error in translation.

The video is great and entirely supports what this thread discusses. Nobody is arguing that a larger (175gr) tmk isn’t going to do more damage than a smaller tmk (77gr) at the same velocity.

But what is being argued against is that the energy at impact has any bearing when predicting wound size and shape. This 10E is where I think you’re getting all the pushback.

We don’t have an equation to calculated energy dump AND the mechanism (fragments, mushroom, tumble, etc) that would be required to predict the outcome.

Therefore when evaluating different bullet construction, KE is useless. Even with the same construction it doesn’t tell you anything measurable. How much more? And how is the wound cavity different?

The whole point here is that bullets matter more than headstamps and a consistent trend of terminal results are better than fudd math.

 

[roosiebull]

This is the fine print on using a small cartridge with low energy and the wrong bullet construction. It frankly doesn’t get mentioned enough. If you think a big magnum can be slow killing with a mismatched bullet try it with a 223 and it can get way worse. It should be stated over and over because at the end of the day you are not on the receiving end of it. There is a living breathing animal that is going to die and your decisions greatly affect how quick, clean, and painless that experience is.

I don’t think anyone wouldn’t agree with you here, though it has been very thoroughly discussed in this thread… as you go down in caliber/cartridge, bullet construction becomes more important for desirable results.

Years ago when I got an AR for calling cats, I used my present understanding of bullets to see what shot well in that rifle, my top choice didn’t shoot well at all TTSX, and that bummed me out, but in hindsight I got lucky. I figured the smaller the bullet, the more important it was that it held together… I just didn’t know what I didn’t know. I ended up settling on the 77gr smk, which is also not a great choice, but surely better than a baby mono

I only used that rifle one season and killed a nice Tom lion I called in and my wife killed her first blacktail buck with it. I got a glimpse of why a 223 can be so effective, and I was able to shoot that cat 4 times before he could get out of dodge… scope never left target

My wife, who at the time was very inexperienced, was able to get 2 shots on target on that buck… neither needed a follow up, but it’s certainly a good option/habit since the shooter doesn’t see the path of a bullet