.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[HairyScandinavian]

I know everyone likes to make fun of the mythical bullet repellent properties of the boar shield and scapula joint. While I mostly agree that it's blown way out of proportion, I have killed more than a couple hogs that had been shot before and recovered from their injuries, with lead fragments embedded in the shield and/or scapula joint. This hog in particular was shot by me with a mono, and it's prior injury healed so well that I didn't notice anything was wrong until after it was cooked in a crock pot all day. I wouldn't consider this any sort of data point because it's possible these hogs just took a bullet that had finished going clean through another hog in front of them. I would not argue about this too much, but I also believe in the possibility of a tolerance stack where there's a bigger boar, his hide is caked in mud, he's farther away and more quartering than the shooter thought, the bullet is light for caliber, etc. again I don't hold that belief too strongly, but the pictures speak for themselves.

We've dug quite a few bullets out of boars in the past. When I was a kid I watched him knock one down with the 7 mag at about 150 yard shot, saw the same boar with a big open soar right on the shoulder two weeks later. I think what you say about their shield thickness plus a caked on layer of dry mud is valid, plus their vitals are a bit differently arranged than a deer so some guys maybe don't hit where they think they should.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Thank you for this response. I hadn’t thought about it this way.

I don’t have a .223 currently but do have a 22 creed. In this case my 22creed would suffice and no need for the 6 creed then? Is there an issue with the velocities I get out of my CM and match bullets? Right night the 77 tmk has a MV of 3080.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

My 20" barrel suppressed 22 Creed shooting 80 ELDXs has a longer "killing range" than both my 243 and 6 Creed shooting 103 ELDX's.

3080 from a 77 TMK at mid DA will have you above 1,800 FPS impact velocity out to around 750 yards.

 

[HandgunHTR]

Just an FYI, SGAmmo is closing out all of its AMMO Inc. ammunition. For those that don't know, AMMO Inc. was purchased by Winchester so that Win could increase its manufacturing capability. AMMO Inc. is going away.

Anyway, they have 200 round cases of the AMMO Inc. Blueline .223 ammo that is loaded with the 64 grain Nosler bonded bullet clearance priced at $149.50. Free shipping on orders over $200.

200 Round Case – 223 Rem 64 Grain Bonded Ammo Incorporated Blueline Ammo – 223064BND-A20 – SGAmmo.com

 

[Bamban]

Last season. 77 TMK 223 bolt gun coming out 2914. It went through both shoulder and bullet remnant lodged on the skin. Range 240 yards, DRT on its shadow.

 

[Masonthor]

DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ 176 PAGES? HERE'S THE CHEAT SHEET.

---

“Bullets matter more than headstamps.”

“Spent primers offer the supreme tutorial”.

I’ve read it here and elsewhere online. It got my attention. I started digging and asking questions and listened.

The 77gr TMK delivered by a .223 is where I ended up after many discussions and objective data regarding bullet performance and numerous pics of field results.

Now for the delivery system. Accurate. Repeatable. Reliable. Reasonable weight to afford steady shot placement and the ability to spot my own impacts yet packable. Tikka T3x, vertical grip, Sportsmatch rings, SWFA 6x MQ in mills. Replaced the trigger spring with a yo Dave, adjusted to my liking, then degreased everything and locked all of the screws down with loctite and got started.

The package checks all of the boxes. Plus, it’s FUN! Time at the range is spent learning to call wind, trigger control, spotting your own impacts and figuring out why a shot did or did not end up where you wanted it. No brake. No flinch. Inexpensive to shoot. The fun factor plus the ability to be able to afford to shoot a lot goes a long way to learning and understanding shooting, accuracy and precision.

With all of that said, I’ve decided to use 77 TMK out of a .223 from this delivery system for bear, deer and elk this season.

Opportunity presented itself a couple of days ago. I killed a mature, dry sow with the 77 TMK. Bullet performance exceeded all expectations! The terminal performance is on par with anything I’ve seen in a .284 or .30. Unreal performance. The bullet is a BEAST!

Practice will continue throughout the summer in preparation for the upcoming deer and elk seasons.

Based on my sample of one, the 77 TMK out of a .223 is truly a lethal combination well suited to a dedicated lower 48 big game rifle.

Would love to hear about others experiences with this bullet or similar bulletts!

Nice man

 

[atmat]

Nice man

Lol good post dude. Hope you get access to the classifieds soon.

 

[1000yards]

I have a question for the experts. I shoot a lot of feral hogs mostly with a 30 caliber 130 TTSX with impact velocities at least 2600 fps and up to 3200 fps. What sort of terminal performance difference will I see between that setup and the heavyweight .224 bullets? If I need to be more specific then let's say a .308 130 TTSX and a .224 77tmk both hit a 200 lb hog at 2800 fps, what's the average difference?

 

[Ajsomp]

You’re comparing a copper bullet to a cup and core - so likely you’re going to see a difference regardless even if you swapped to a eldm in the 308. Likely larger wound channels all around. Some guys are seeing good results with copper rose bullets which are copper but seem to operate differently than Barnes copper, but in general your match bullets will fragment more violently than copper equivalents.

That being said - these bullets do great. If you absolutely have to have pass through, you may not get it. But 223/22arc/22creed do great. We’ve watched plenty of pigs doing the stanky leg through thermals and 22 arc and 22 creed, as well as 223.

 

[1000yards]

You’re comparing a copper bullet to a cup and core - so likely you’re going to see a difference regardless even if you swapped to a eldm in the 308. Likely larger wound channels all around. Some guys are seeing good results with copper rose bullets which are copper but seem to operate differently than Barnes copper, but in general your match bullets will fragment more violently than copper equivalents.

That being said - these bullets do great. If you absolutely have to have pass through, you may not get it. But 223/22arc/22creed do great. We’ve watched plenty of pigs doing the stanky leg through thermals and 22 arc and 22 creed, as well as 223.

Yes, sorry I wasn't more specific about this: I've killed them with everything from a 22LR to a 375 H&H and all the different types of bullets. I know those 22s work because I've used them on hogs, and still do on occasion. But I normally don't have the time to cut these pigs open, and I'm probably not smart enough to know what I'd be looking at anyways. All that to say, I understand the differences between a fragmenting lead core and an expanding mono within the same caliber, but not within different calibers. I'm curious to know the wound channel differences between a .308 130 TTSX and a .224 77 tmk at the higher velocities.

 

[HandgunHTR]

I have a question for the experts. I shoot a lot of feral hogs mostly with a 30 caliber 130 TTSX with impact velocities at least 2600 fps and up to 3200 fps. What sort of terminal performance difference will I see between that setup and the heavyweight .224 bullets? If I need to be more specific then let's say a .308 130 TTSX and a .224 77tmk both hit a 200 lb hog at 2800 fps, what's the average difference?

What you will most likely see, without actually cutting them open, is an increase in the amount of pigs that drop right away or within sight, rather than running off to die.

Now, if you shots are all high shoulder or neck/head shots then you won't see much of a difference because a CNS hit is a CNS hit, regardless of bullet.

The other thing you will see is the ability to get back on target quicker for shots at other pigs if you run into a sounder.

 

[1000yards]

What you will most likely see, without actually cutting them open, is an increase in the amount of pigs that drop right away or within sight, rather than running off to die.

Now, if you shots are all high shoulder or neck/head shots then you won't see much of a difference because a CNS hit is a CNS hit, regardless of bullet.

The other thing you will see is the ability to get back on target quicker for shots at other pigs if you run into a sounder.

Cool, thank you that sounds good. Now what would happen if a fella did have the time to open them up, and he actually knew what he was looking at. What would he see?

 

[Drenalin]

@1000yards In the upper right of your screen, there's a search bar. Type "TTSX" in there, then change "Everywhere" to "This Thread." I'm not being a smartass - you may find some useful info kind of scattered throughout the thread that can help you make some educated guesses. At least till someone comes along who has made the comparison you're after themselves. You may also find some good info in the All Things .308 thread.

 

[ACHILLES]

I have a question for the experts. I shoot a lot of feral hogs mostly with a 30 caliber 130 TTSX with impact velocities at least 2600 fps and up to 3200 fps. What sort of terminal performance difference will I see between that setup and the heavyweight .224 bullets? If I need to be more specific then let's say a .308 130 TTSX and a .224 77tmk both hit a 200 lb hog at 2800 fps, what's the average difference?

I killed pigs with the.30cal 124gr hammer. And several with the 80gr eldm. Only difference I’ve seen is the they run further before dropping with the .22 cal. By further I mean 50-100yds. With the 124hammers they rarely make it past 25 yards. Sometimes the 80gr eldm will get full pass throughs on 100lb pigs.

 

[omicron1792]

I killed pigs with the.30cal 124gr hammer. And several with the 80gr eldm. Only difference I’ve seen is the they run further before dropping with the .22 cal. By further I mean 50-100yds. With the 124hammers they rarely make it past 25 yards. Sometimes the 80gr eldm will get full pass throughs on 100lb pigs.

I haven’t found any difference in how far an animal runs based on pass through or not. Only difference with pass through has been blood trail for tracking.

I have definitely seen more drt animals using fragmenting bullets, even in smaller calibers.

 

[ACHILLES]

I haven’t either and wasn’t trying to imply that animals drop faster with full pass through shots. I do like the immediate expansion of the 80gr eldms though as I usually have a good blood trail from the entrance wound. At least from 18” creed speeds.

 

[omicron1792]

I haven’t either and wasn’t trying to imply that animals drop faster with full pass through shots. I do like the immediate expansion of the 80gr eldms though as I usually have a good blood trail from the entrance wound. At least from 18” creed speeds.

Gotcha. I agree with you.

I like the Raptor, Maximus, and hammer bullets. Form is convinced they don’t do as much damage as a fragmenting lead bullet. But you do often get shank pass through with them. So kind of the best of both world scenarios. I use raptor and Maximus bullets in my large calibers for Africa.

 

[1000yards]

I killed pigs with the.30cal 124gr hammer. And several with the 80gr eldm. Only difference I’ve seen is the they run further before dropping with the .22 cal. By further I mean 50-100yds. With the 124hammers they rarely make it past 25 yards. Sometimes the 80gr eldm will get full pass throughs on 100lb pigs.

That's been my experience as well (mono 30 cals tend to drop them faster than anything 224), although I just started keeping a kill journal this year so I won't argue that my experience means anything. Which is why I'm asking if any of the experts can explain the differences in terminal performance.

 

[ACHILLES]

Gotcha. I agree with you.


I like the Raptor, Maximus, and hammer bullets. Form is convinced they don’t do as much damage as a fragmenting lead bullet. But you do often get shank pass through with them. So kind of the best of both world scenarios. I use raptor and Maximus bullets in my large calibers for Africa.

The hammers shed 3 pedals so I’m sure that helps with damage and incapacitation time. Has form tested many of the hammers? I have some 69.5 hbc hammers to test as well as I don’t have many .22 cal mono kills. I’m running them at 3500fps in the 18” 22creed. And 2750fps in the 12” 22arc

 

[Thegman]

@1000yards , I haven't used the 130s in a long time, but in my experience with 30 caliber 130 TSX at similar velocities to yours, and 77TMKs from around 2,000 to 2,650, I'd give the edge to the 77TMK in the center of the thoracic cavity and the 130 the edge on either end with more penetration, generally larger exits and bigger blood trails.

I've used both on deer, black bear, grizzly, moose and add caribou for the 130s and would summarize as similar killing with better blood trails from the 130s.

 

[The Harbor Master]

Just an FYI, SGAmmo is closing out all of its AMMO Inc. ammunition. For those that don't know, AMMO Inc. was purchased by Winchester so that Win could increase its manufacturing capability. AMMO Inc. is going away.

Anyway, they have 200 round cases of the AMMO Inc. Blueline .223 ammo that is loaded with the 64 grain Nosler bonded bullet clearance priced at $149.50. Free shipping on orders over $200.

200 Round Case – 223 Rem 64 Grain Bonded Ammo Incorporated Blueline Ammo – 223064BND-A20 – SGAmmo.com

Interesting. I popped over to this thread to see if there's been much talk about AMMO Inc stuff. I was looking at the 75gr OTBT and wondering if it's worth trying as practice stuff. Im shooting the AAC 77gr OTM and 73gr ELD-M right around 1.5" for 10rd groups and was hoping to find something that gets me closer to an inch flat.

Kinda unfortunate to hear about the Winchester buy out, I've had pretty terrible luck with Winchester ammo and refuse to shoot any white box stuff anymore.