.223 for bear, mountain goat, deer, elk, and moose.

[Ajsomp]

You’re comparing a copper bullet to a cup and core - so likely you’re going to see a difference regardless even if you swapped to a eldm in the 308. Likely larger wound channels all around. Some guys are seeing good results with copper rose bullets which are copper but seem to operate differently than Barnes copper, but in general your match bullets will fragment more violently than copper equivalents.

That being said - these bullets do great. If you absolutely have to have pass through, you may not get it. But 223/22arc/22creed do great. We’ve watched plenty of pigs doing the stanky leg through thermals and 22 arc and 22 creed, as well as 223.

 

[1000yards]

You’re comparing a copper bullet to a cup and core - so likely you’re going to see a difference regardless even if you swapped to a eldm in the 308. Likely larger wound channels all around. Some guys are seeing good results with copper rose bullets which are copper but seem to operate differently than Barnes copper, but in general your match bullets will fragment more violently than copper equivalents.

That being said - these bullets do great. If you absolutely have to have pass through, you may not get it. But 223/22arc/22creed do great. We’ve watched plenty of pigs doing the stanky leg through thermals and 22 arc and 22 creed, as well as 223.

Yes, sorry I wasn't more specific about this: I've killed them with everything from a 22LR to a 375 H&H and all the different types of bullets. I know those 22s work because I've used them on hogs, and still do on occasion. But I normally don't have the time to cut these pigs open, and I'm probably not smart enough to know what I'd be looking at anyways. All that to say, I understand the differences between a fragmenting lead core and an expanding mono within the same caliber, but not within different calibers. I'm curious to know the wound channel differences between a .308 130 TTSX and a .224 77 tmk at the higher velocities.

 

[HandgunHTR]

I have a question for the experts. I shoot a lot of feral hogs mostly with a 30 caliber 130 TTSX with impact velocities at least 2600 fps and up to 3200 fps. What sort of terminal performance difference will I see between that setup and the heavyweight .224 bullets? If I need to be more specific then let's say a .308 130 TTSX and a .224 77tmk both hit a 200 lb hog at 2800 fps, what's the average difference?

What you will most likely see, without actually cutting them open, is an increase in the amount of pigs that drop right away or within sight, rather than running off to die.

Now, if you shots are all high shoulder or neck/head shots then you won't see much of a difference because a CNS hit is a CNS hit, regardless of bullet.

The other thing you will see is the ability to get back on target quicker for shots at other pigs if you run into a sounder.

 

[1000yards]

What you will most likely see, without actually cutting them open, is an increase in the amount of pigs that drop right away or within sight, rather than running off to die.

Now, if you shots are all high shoulder or neck/head shots then you won't see much of a difference because a CNS hit is a CNS hit, regardless of bullet.

The other thing you will see is the ability to get back on target quicker for shots at other pigs if you run into a sounder.

Cool, thank you that sounds good. Now what would happen if a fella did have the time to open them up, and he actually knew what he was looking at. What would he see?

 

[Drenalin]

@1000yards In the upper right of your screen, there's a search bar. Type "TTSX" in there, then change "Everywhere" to "This Thread." I'm not being a smartass - you may find some useful info kind of scattered throughout the thread that can help you make some educated guesses. At least till someone comes along who has made the comparison you're after themselves. You may also find some good info in the All Things .308 thread.

 

[ACHILLES]

I have a question for the experts. I shoot a lot of feral hogs mostly with a 30 caliber 130 TTSX with impact velocities at least 2600 fps and up to 3200 fps. What sort of terminal performance difference will I see between that setup and the heavyweight .224 bullets? If I need to be more specific then let's say a .308 130 TTSX and a .224 77tmk both hit a 200 lb hog at 2800 fps, what's the average difference?

I killed pigs with the.30cal 124gr hammer. And several with the 80gr eldm. Only difference I’ve seen is the they run further before dropping with the .22 cal. By further I mean 50-100yds. With the 124hammers they rarely make it past 25 yards. Sometimes the 80gr eldm will get full pass throughs on 100lb pigs.

 

[omicron1792]

I killed pigs with the.30cal 124gr hammer. And several with the 80gr eldm. Only difference I’ve seen is the they run further before dropping with the .22 cal. By further I mean 50-100yds. With the 124hammers they rarely make it past 25 yards. Sometimes the 80gr eldm will get full pass throughs on 100lb pigs.

I haven’t found any difference in how far an animal runs based on pass through or not. Only difference with pass through has been blood trail for tracking.

I have definitely seen more drt animals using fragmenting bullets, even in smaller calibers.

 

[ACHILLES]

I haven’t either and wasn’t trying to imply that animals drop faster with full pass through shots. I do like the immediate expansion of the 80gr eldms though as I usually have a good blood trail from the entrance wound. At least from 18” creed speeds.

 

[omicron1792]

I haven’t either and wasn’t trying to imply that animals drop faster with full pass through shots. I do like the immediate expansion of the 80gr eldms though as I usually have a good blood trail from the entrance wound. At least from 18” creed speeds.

Gotcha. I agree with you.

I like the Raptor, Maximus, and hammer bullets. Form is convinced they don’t do as much damage as a fragmenting lead bullet. But you do often get shank pass through with them. So kind of the best of both world scenarios. I use raptor and Maximus bullets in my large calibers for Africa.

 

[1000yards]

I killed pigs with the.30cal 124gr hammer. And several with the 80gr eldm. Only difference I’ve seen is the they run further before dropping with the .22 cal. By further I mean 50-100yds. With the 124hammers they rarely make it past 25 yards. Sometimes the 80gr eldm will get full pass throughs on 100lb pigs.

That's been my experience as well (mono 30 cals tend to drop them faster than anything 224), although I just started keeping a kill journal this year so I won't argue that my experience means anything. Which is why I'm asking if any of the experts can explain the differences in terminal performance.

 

[ACHILLES]

Gotcha. I agree with you.


I like the Raptor, Maximus, and hammer bullets. Form is convinced they don’t do as much damage as a fragmenting lead bullet. But you do often get shank pass through with them. So kind of the best of both world scenarios. I use raptor and Maximus bullets in my large calibers for Africa.

The hammers shed 3 pedals so I’m sure that helps with damage and incapacitation time. Has form tested many of the hammers? I have some 69.5 hbc hammers to test as well as I don’t have many .22 cal mono kills. I’m running them at 3500fps in the 18” 22creed. And 2750fps in the 12” 22arc

 

[Thegman]

@1000yards , I haven't used the 130s in a long time, but in my experience with 30 caliber 130 TSX at similar velocities to yours, and 77TMKs from around 2,000 to 2,650, I'd give the edge to the 77TMK in the center of the thoracic cavity and the 130 the edge on either end with more penetration, generally larger exits and bigger blood trails.

I've used both on deer, black bear, grizzly, moose and add caribou for the 130s and would summarize as similar killing with better blood trails from the 130s.

 

[The Harbor Master]

Just an FYI, SGAmmo is closing out all of its AMMO Inc. ammunition. For those that don't know, AMMO Inc. was purchased by Winchester so that Win could increase its manufacturing capability. AMMO Inc. is going away.

Anyway, they have 200 round cases of the AMMO Inc. Blueline .223 ammo that is loaded with the 64 grain Nosler bonded bullet clearance priced at $149.50. Free shipping on orders over $200.

200 Round Case – 223 Rem 64 Grain Bonded Ammo Incorporated Blueline Ammo – 223064BND-A20 – SGAmmo.com

Interesting. I popped over to this thread to see if there's been much talk about AMMO Inc stuff. I was looking at the 75gr OTBT and wondering if it's worth trying as practice stuff. Im shooting the AAC 77gr OTM and 73gr ELD-M right around 1.5" for 10rd groups and was hoping to find something that gets me closer to an inch flat.

Kinda unfortunate to hear about the Winchester buy out, I've had pretty terrible luck with Winchester ammo and refuse to shoot any white box stuff anymore.

 

[Bluumoon]

Interesting. I popped over to this thread to see if there's been much talk about AMMO Inc stuff. I was looking at the 75gr OTBT and wondering if it's worth trying as practice stuff. Im shooting the AAC 77gr OTM and 73gr ELD-M right around 1.5" for 10rd groups and was hoping to find something that gets me closer to an inch flat.

Kinda unfortunate to hear about the Winchester buy out, I've had pretty terrible luck with Winchester ammo and refuse to shoot any white box stuff anymore.

Fairly certain AMMO inc is who Bone Frog was contracting w to load their stuff. The Bone Frog 77 otm provided the smallest 10 and 20 round groups I’ve seen from my Tikka to date. The BF TMK was < 1.5” for 2O rounds. Tried the BF 62 gr as well, it was mostly under 1.5”
w some stragglers out around 2.5”.

 

[Moccasin]

What you will most likely see, without actually cutting them open, is an increase in the amount of pigs that drop right away or within sight, rather than running off to die.

The other thing you will see is the ability to get back on target quicker for shots at other pigs if you run into a sounder.

This mirrors my experience with 77 TMKs on pigs out of a suppressed 223. Thoracic cavity exit wounds 2-2.5” and typically running <50 yards before piling up.

Most noticeable is you can hear the hits and transition more quickly. In a typical setup with a sounder feeding through an ag field with 50-75 yds until cover, 2-3 typically fall in the field or just into the woodline.

 

[Hunt_Jefferson]

Looking for opinions on factory loaded lead free .223 options for California blacktail or blacktail/mule hybrid. Range under 100 yards is most likely. I’m not seeing much for choices besides:

Copper Creek 62gr TTSX
Black Hills 62gr TSX
Lehigh Defense 62gr Controlled Chaos
Lehigh Defense 62gr Maximum Expansion

A few more options exist at 55gr (Barnes TTSX, Winchester, etc) but I assume it’s best to go with the heavier grain in .223?

Undecided on rifle but likely the Tikka compact 20” barrel (11 yo’s rifle).

 

[Ajsomp]

Looking for opinions on factory loaded lead free .223 options for California blacktail or blacktail/mule hybrid. Range under 100 yards is most likely. I’m not seeing much for choices besides:

Copper Creek 62gr TTSX
Black Hills 62gr TSX
Lehigh Defense 62gr Controlled Chaos
Lehigh Defense 62gr Maximum Expansion

A few more options exist at 55gr (Barnes TTSX, Winchester, etc) but I assume it’s best to go with the heavier grain in .223?

Undecided on rifle but likely the Tikka compact 20” barrel (11 yo’s rifle).

the 62 grain controlled chaos bullet has done great for me out of an AR on deer, hogs, and coyotes. Are you looking at factory loads only?

 

[Nine Banger]

Copper is not required here but I was sucked in by the marketing when I first starting hunting around 20 years ago.

I used the 62gr TTSX and 80gr TTSX (243).

The 80s got it done but the 62gr didn't.

I recall one shot where I had 2 other hunters positioned around my place and heard them both shoot so I plugged a doe in a group I was watching at around 15 yards. I saw impact and watched her walk off. I picked up a shooter marble sized chunk of lung on the ground behind her, looked for a half our or so for blood and did not recover with 3 sets of eyes. Went back the next day to grid search and no dice either.

 

[Hunt_Jefferson]

the 62 grain controlled chaos bullet has done great for me out of an AR on deer, hogs, and coyotes. Are you looking at factory loads only?

Yes, factory loads only. Reloading isn’t in the cards for now.

 

[Poe]

BC and AB allow .22 cal centerfires.

Sask does aswell